| વિષયના પાનાઓ: < [1 2] | Off topic: New Off Topic moderator resigns દોર પોસ્ટ કરનાર: Attila Piróth
|
|---|
Attila Piróth 
ફ્રાંસ
Local time: 22:23
સભ્ય
અંગ્રેજી થી હંગેરીયન
+ ...
વિષયની શરૂઆત કરનાર
italengger wrote:
Just a couple of weeks, or less?
Allow me one question that nobody dares to ask:
WHY???
Why after only 2 or 3 weeks, why?
Hi Aniello and all,
That's a good question. I will try to explain it. It should be borne in mind that my resignation is one among 25-30 since about a month ago. But what I will say below is my personal view alone.
The short answer to your question is this: I resigned now because I realized that my views on moderators' role are no longer in line with the ProZ.com staff's expectations towards moderators. My resignation is therefore a question of keeping my integrity, and I feel I can continue to contribute a lot to the site as a member.
My decision does not stem from any frustration related to any conflict with forum or KudoZ users. The reasons lie elsewhere.
Just a couple of months ago, returning from my summer holidays, I got an email in which I was proposed to join the moderators' team. I felt truly honored. I had the privilege to read threads in which my great predecessors -- the majority of whom now became my fellow moderators -- laid the foundations of many groundbreaking new features on ProZ.com. The debates were insightful, cooperative, and fruitful. Staff and moderators were working beautifully together. The place was a swarming think tank. Doubts were raise, and discussed in an examplary fashion.
Doubts... Having a scientific background, that must be a keyword for me. As my great favorite, Richard Feynman said: "Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." And this approach, of having proposals analyzed by almost a hundred experienced and enthusiastic professionals, with widely diverse backgrounds, living in several dozens of countries all over the globe, worked beautifully.
So, I entered this place that truly awed me. Apart from the "sounding board" function, rules enforcement was also discussed. Not only discussed, debated. With representatives of conflicting views with a great respect for one another. And when decision was made, they were accepted and applied, and people went on to discuss the next issue. Priorities were discussed, and agreed upon. Large-scale construction work was going on and managed in a great way.
I could see some of the blueprints of how ProZ.com was built. Just take a look here to see how the site evolved. It is a fascinating time travel. It helps to appreciate the greatness of the site -- a site about which so many of the moderators are very passionate. I am certainly one of them.
The moderators forum also contains a great amount of ideas that were discussed and discarded. To see why an idea is bad is extremely important. A book of chess openings in which only the best lines are given is very valuable, but if you cannot figure out the refutation of inferior replies, you will have great holes in your preparation. Similarly, in scientific journals you will find a lot of articles that demonstrate why a certain theory cannot explain a given phenomenon. So, I could read lots of such stuff, too -- and I learned a lot from that. To cut a long story short, I spent quite a bit of time to read old threads. If I have any regrets my period of serving as a moderator it is that I did not spend even more time with that.
The communication in the moderators' forum was in the same spirit when I joined it. There was a difference, of course: in the meantime, a huge site has been built. The first phase of the great construction was finished. Site creation, which used to be the major role of moderators, required less effort. Staff has grown, resulting in a better and prompter support to users. The principles and details of moderating forum and KudoZ activity were set down.
Thinking of ProZ.com, with its over 300,000 registered users, I often look at it as a city. With a community, with its own rules, and rules enforcement. Being a member of the rules enforcement team is a very important part of the moderators' role. Applying the rules, taking action when they are not respected is a very small part of a moderator's job. Many KudoZ moderators are very active participants anyway, so they, as participants see a great part of the questions anyway, and they will spot if there are any problems. And it is perfectly possible to keep a balanced peer-to-peer relationship with colleagues. However, this requires some judgment on the moderator's part.
About a month ago, the scope of moderators' role was redefined. The "sounding board" feature was removed, more precisely, transferred to the member community. Many moderators did not continue to be a moderator, and among them several of those who had been there since the very beginning, and whose contribution cannot be described by anything less than fundamental. Was it inevitable that these people have to leave for that the whole community could be involved in future developments? Communication, which used to work so well on the moderators' forum, just did not seem to work. Things were happening too fast, not only in terms of time, but in terms of the discussion devoted to it.
Each moderator had to choose, whether to continue or not as a moderator. My choice was not very difficult to make: I regretted that the moderators' role had been reduced to rules enforcement and site guidance, but I felt I could contribute and make a difference. That is why I picked up Özden's baton, and was very glad to be in charge of the OT forum. I felt a mistake was made, that the think tank function should have been altered in smaller steps. But, to give another chess analogy, you don't abandon when you have made a mistake; you abandon when your position is truly lost, when you no longer believe you can turn it around. And that was certainly not the case: I felt I could continue to work as a moderator, contribute to the evolution of the site as a moderator, and get satisfaction from it, while keeping my integrity.
If you take a look at ProZ.com's site rules, you will see that they are concisely formulated. Some of them are explained in more detail in the FAQ, and applying them consistently is not always straightforward, that is why moderators discuss them among themselves and with the staff on the moderators forum. There are also different ways to apply them, and the choice is often determined by the actual situation. (To give an example: questions that are not perfectly in line with the rules may be squashed, but squashing a closed question would often not make sense.) When discussing such problems with colleagues, personal experience, and personal opinions, finding the roots of the problems made such discussions very interesting to me. Trying to find patterns -- e.g., inexperienced KudoZ askers tend to close questions prematurely (within 24 hours) more than experienced ones -- and appropriate solutions based on personal experience. Solutions that would complement the existing rules -- as was, for example, the introduction of the confidence level long ago --, or that would lead to proposals for amending the rules.
Like all the foregoing, this is just my personal perception. I felt that some recent amendments of the rules and guidelines about the usage of the moderators forum did not encourage a certain type of exchange in the moderators forum that I cherished so much. I felt the healthy doubt in the finality of the rules has tarnished, and that too much emphasis has been laid on a certain kind of consistency of moderators' action. I felt that this consistency simplified things, but was, in some situations, an overkill. And I could pinpoint some situations (notably, in KudoZ), where taking such an action would no longer allow me to participate in the KudoZ exchange as a peer. Therefore, moderatorship would go against my business interests -- or, in other words, rules enforcement would not be perfectly adapted to my situation of active KudoZ participant. Of course, it does not need to be -- but then, the person who fulfills that role, can be someone else, too.
So, it boils down to the personal touch, which I valued so much in the exchange on the moderators forum and also in moderating a forum. This forum, where you made me feel that, even an initially heated discussion, which finally fizzled out into a lovely thread with humor and a great song, it was possible, welcome, and appreciated, to be a moderator and a part of the party. I sincerely thank you for that, that was the highlight of a three-week moderator period.
My resignation as a moderator is nothing more than my reaction to this situation: I understand the expectations towards moderators but I would do it in another way to keep my integrity. I understand that I cannot do it like that as a moderator, so I will do it as a user.
I still very much agree with ProZ.com's mission. My resignation as a moderator changes nothing of my high appreciation of the guiding principles that are behind the rules. There are lots of ways to be an active, valuable and valued member of the community -- even if there are things that I do not agree with. The redefined and readjusted moderator role might not suite me best -- at least, for the time being. I tried not to burn any bridges, to leave without feeling and leaving any bitterness.
Best,
Attila
| | | | Aniello Scognamiglio (X)
જર્મની
Local time: 22:23
અંગ્રેજી થી જર્મન
+ ...
| Thanks a lot, Attila! | Mar 23, 2009 |
Many thanks for explaining in detail something that is not easy to understand.
| | | | Ekin Ay
તર્કી
Local time: 00:23
અંગ્રેજી થી ટર્કિશ
+ ...
Thank you Attila, that was enlightening.
See you around!
All the best,
Ekin
| | | | | Thank you indeed | Mar 23, 2009 |
Attila, I appreciate your well-reasoned explanation very much. And it pleases me to know that you too think so highly of a man who has been much missed for 20 years now.
| | |
|
|
|
Gabriela Nikolova
માસેડોનીઆ (એફ વાય આર ઓ એમ)
Local time: 22:23
અંગ્રેજી થી મેસેડોનિયન
+ ...
Thank you Attila, and as I already said in my previous post, we are all happy having you still at proz...
regards,
Gabriela
| | | | | Idyllic communities: Cicely (from "Northern Exposure") | Mar 27, 2009 |
Hello Attila and all,
I recently purchased the complete edition of DVDs of "Northern Exposure", an American TV series from the early 90's about a recently graduated doctor, a "typical" New Yorker (meaning, à la Woody Allen), who ends up working in a small town in Alaska called Cicely, in return for getting his med-school loans paid off.
Although Dr. Fleischman (that's his name) absolutely hates Cicely at first, he ends up loving it (even if he doesn't ever completely ... See more Hello Attila and all,
I recently purchased the complete edition of DVDs of "Northern Exposure", an American TV series from the early 90's about a recently graduated doctor, a "typical" New Yorker (meaning, à la Woody Allen), who ends up working in a small town in Alaska called Cicely, in return for getting his med-school loans paid off.
Although Dr. Fleischman (that's his name) absolutely hates Cicely at first, he ends up loving it (even if he doesn't ever completely admit it), because of how idyllic Cicely turns out to be.
I mention this because Attila's reference to both the "history" and early development of Proz.com (great that you included that link to the Wayback Machine Internet Archive), as well as to the previous role of the moderator circle, made me think a little bit of Cicely, and even of Henry David Thoreau's "Walden", of "idyllic" communities/societies.
But was life in Cicely really always and in all cases "idyllic", even at its beginnings?
If we watch at least the first two seasons of "Northern Exposure", episode after episode we start discovering how in Cicely there is actually all this intricate psychology/politics and even power games and personality clashes, which often make the government of Cicely difficult, to say the least, in spite of all the democratic "crowdsourcing" (brainstorming) meetings of the townspeople, where everything is debated and voted.
Plus in Cicely the one who really holds the keys/power of the community/town is that rich NASA ex-astronaut character, Maurice Minnifield, who is stubbornly business-minded and whose leadership often clashes with the more idealistic townspeople. Sound familiar?
Anyway, in the series even Cicely grows out of its idyllic beginnings/its age of innocence. In the end Dr. Fleischmann returns to that huge megalopolis, New York City, because, even though he learns to love small Cicely, it actually never satisfied him completely and he had always dreamt of returning to the noise and the stressful life of his beloved NYC**.
Perhaps the moral of the Cicely story (should there be one) is that, whether it's small Cicely or huge New York City, it's the sum of all the community members (past, present and potential) what can really make a difference in the quality of a community.
Sure, sometimes the community may have major differences of "opinion" (or interests) with the community's government/"mayor" (sheriff?), but I guess if you really care for your involvement in the community, and for what it may have brought or may bring to you, you can always find ways, sooner or later, of convincing even the Maurice Minnifields of the world to learn a bit from the idealism of others, just as you may learn from his materialism.
DISCLAIMER: this was just a fun-meant/candid metaphor. All characters mentioned are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
Next Proz.com community metaphor: Star Wars, Darth Vader and the dark side of the force/translation world (LOL!)....
---------------
** In fact what happened is that the actor playing Dr. Fleischman decided to move on to other acting challenges; currently he is one of the main characters in another cool series called "Numb3rs", produced by director brothers Ridley and Tony Scott. ▲ Collapse
| | | | chance (X)
ફ્રેન્ચ થી ચાઇનિઝ
+ ...
I haven't seen the series, but it sounds interesting.
ICL wrote:
…
Anyway, in the series even Cicely grows out of its idyllic beginnings/its age of innocence. In the end Dr. Fleischmann returns to that huge megalopolis, New York City, because, even though he learns to love small Cicely, it actually never satisfied him completely and he had always dreamt of returning to the noise and the stressful life of his beloved NYC**.
…
** In fact what happened is that the actor playing Dr. Fleischman decided to move on to other acting challenges; currently he is one of the main characters in another cool series called "Numb3rs", produced by director brothers Ridley and Tony Scott.
| | | | Attila Piróth
ફ્રાંસ
Local time: 22:23
સભ્ય
અંગ્રેજી થી હંગેરીયન
+ ...
વિષયની શરૂઆત કરનાર | Thank you, Ivette | Mar 28, 2009 |
ICL wrote:
DISCLAIMER: this was just a fun-meant/candid metaphor. All characters mentioned are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
Hi Ivette,
Thank you for your thought-provoking post. I don't know "Northern Exposure", but I can very easily understand that such a community can offer good analogy to ProZ.com in certain aspects.
Garry Kasparov, who is generally considered to be the greatest chess player in the entire history of the game (Bobby Fischer being the only other real contender for this title), wrote a very remarkable book on How life imitates chess. No, not the other way round. So, spending quite some time in this community, writing an essay on How real society imitates ProZ.com does not sound completely lunatic. But at he very least, the ProZ.com community experience can often be a very useful guide in other situations that are not based on the internet. I would certainly not use the word "real-life" for this, as it would imply ProZ.com is only virtual, which is surely not true -- anyone who has ever participated in powwows and conferences will confirm that.
Attila
| | |
|
|
|
| OT: Lasker over Fischer | Mar 28, 2009 |
Attila Piróth wrote:
Garry Kasparov, who is generally considered to be the greatest chess player in the entire history of the game (Bobby Fischer being the only other real contender for this title)
I would rate Emanuel Lasker over Fischer: keeping the World Title for about 27 years against strong opponents should count for something.
Karpov also might have been stronger than Fischer (Kasaparov thought that Fischer would have probably have retained his title against Karopv in a first match, but would then have lost it later in a rematch).
| | | | Attila Piróth
ફ્રાંસ
Local time: 22:23
સભ્ય
અંગ્રેજી થી હંગેરીયન
+ ...
વિષયની શરૂઆત કરનાર | One fell in the trap | Mar 28, 2009 |
Riccardo Schiaffino wrote:
I would rate Emanuel Lasker over Fischer: keeping the World Title for about 27 years against strong opponents should count for something.
Karpov also might have been stronger than Fischer (Kasaparov thought that Fischer would have probably have retained his title against Karopv in a first match, but would then have lost it later in a rematch).
Hi Riccardo,
I must admit that this ranking seems a bit arbitrary to me, too, and a strong case can be made for many of the world champs. And yes, Lasker's achievement is probably impossible to top.
In fact my including this in my posting was a bit of a trap, hoping that other chess aficionados would react to it.
Attila
| | | | | Imitations of life | Mar 29, 2009 |
Attila Piróth wrote:
Garry Kasparov, who is generally considered to be the greatest chess player[s] in the entire history of the game (Bobby Fischer being the only other real contender for this title), wrote a very remarkable book on How life imitates chess. No, not the other way round. So, spending quite some time in this community, writing an essay on How real society imitates ProZ.com does not sound completely lunatic.
Salut, Attila,
I hope we are not drifting away off-topic too much (I hope moderators don't notice this because maybe, since it is Sunday, they are out with their family or partners or whoever they prefer, enjoying life away from the PC), but I thought your last comment (just like the longer previous one where you explained your reasons for resigning) is worth another "chess move."
[And speaking of chess and of "loonies" (smile...), I wonder if you ever read Stefan Zweig's novella about chess. If not (which I doubt), it is definitely worth a read.]
So much has been said about the complex relationship between life and the Internet (in forums, in blogs, in online articles, etc.), usually to make you conclude that we cannot always establish clear boundaries between one and the other.
So my metaphor was nothing new, except in the sense that it referred specifically to Proz.com.
[Btw, if you ever get a chance to watch at least the first two seasons of "Northern Exposure", it is definitely worth it. Keep an eye on the character named Chris, who is the radio narrator.]
But as a "seasoned" user of the Internet and participant in all kinds of online forums and communities (who sometimes has also let herself partly behave the way I am about to describe), perhaps one of the main differences I have always noticed between the Internet and real life is that, unlike in real life, where we are a lot more respectful/careful (and even fearful) of laws and of societal formalities such as "manners", in the Internet I get the feeling that we see a lot more often a "wild wild West" kind of environment.
We see a lot more often people getting quickly heated by trivial things such as the background color used in a specific area of a website, lynching mobs ready to crucify a community member (or sometimes even a public figure) because of supposed facts or rather of rumors they have heard about that person, etc. etc.
Of course we also get to see tons of solidarity and goodwill, but sometimes it seems too little compared to the more common "uncivilized" behavior, such as your typical flame wars, trolls or clique mentality.
I guess that is just the way our contradictory human nature is, so yes, life can be an imitation of the Internet and vice versa.**
P.S.: I have also attended some powwows, and I can certainly vouch for the nice "realness" of many of the "virtual" Proz.com community members I have met in these events.
--------------
** Maybe, since today is my turn to do some weekend cleaning of the apartment, I am just having one of those days where I feel a bit cynical about life and humanity, so sorry for the rant...
| | | | Mirra_
ઇટલી
Local time: 22:23
અંગ્રેજી થી ઇટાલિયન
+ ...
| such a *beautiful mind*... | Mar 31, 2009 |
...what a miss for the moderators group (and even more for the ProZ organization)!!
Alas, I do not speak Hungarian but this "moderators revolution" -at least- gave me the possibility to get in touch with you, such an intelligent and (pro)positive person.
I bet you leaving the moderation will constitute a bad moment for the Italian_Hungarian KudoZers
still, nice to meet you!
cheer... See more ...what a miss for the moderators group (and even more for the ProZ organization)!!
Alas, I do not speak Hungarian but this "moderators revolution" -at least- gave me the possibility to get in touch with you, such an intelligent and (pro)positive person.
I bet you leaving the moderation will constitute a bad moment for the Italian_Hungarian KudoZers
still, nice to meet you!
cheers
Paola
Ps. and for what concerns the movies, many personal and non-personal experiences suggest also... 'the experiment' ehm ehm...)
[Edited at 2009-03-31 18:49 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-04-01 11:52 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | વિષયના પાનાઓ: < [1 2] | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » New Off Topic moderator resigns | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer.
Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools.
Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free
Buy now! » |
| | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
