| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | ProZ.com forums: their purpose and structure. (Also: mood of the Spanish forum and rest of site.) Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
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Maria Karra 
United States
Local time: 05:07
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:
Lo que sí puedo hacer es repetir el resumen de sugerencias que le propuse a Henry en la página 2 de este foro, que creo que engloba gran parte del descontento:
Rosi, tu te expresaste muy claramente en tu mensaje. Pero en otros solamente leí quejas y vi el descontento que los colegas sentían, pero no vi sus sugerencias y sus ideas. Tal vez simplemente porque comparten las tuyas.
In the jobs section: please make it more professional, beginning with the range of prices (there have been countless suggestions on how to avoid that Proz.com looks more and more like a dump site for rates), and ending with how the jobs are presented (no "preference will be given to males" and "honest translators sought" type of sentences).
In the KudoZ section the request is more or less the same; find a way to really discourage abusers and fraud attempts, consumated or potential; that would include a better VIDing system (related to the difficult to discuss topic). I am afraid that "just ignore them" or "live and let live" approach is not enough.
Sí, no es ningún secreto que hace tiempo que estos problemas existen. De acuerdo que se necesita una respuesta del personal (los moderadores no pueden hacer nada). Espero que Henry comente pronto sobre estos problemas y las medidas que pueda tomar. Yo como tú espero que se resuelvan pronto.
In the forums section: Let us discuss our topics more freely. It used to be like that before, and there were less problems. We are all adults, after all. Having a moderator interfere as such in each an every forum, changing titles, repeating us the rules, or locking threads, just brings the moral down.
Aquí los moderadores sí pueden ayudar. También podemos hacer un esfuerzo para que las reglas se apliquen de la misma manera en todos los foros. Para eso habrá muchas discusiones en nuestro foro de moderadores, sobre todo cuando el equipo crezca (que será muy pronto) y vengan los nuevos moderadores. Esto te lo prometo.
Bueno, no quiero que perdamos nuestro tiempo y paciencia dando vueltas al mismo asunto. Quise aclarar unas cosas y también pedir aclaraciones, pero creo que ahora es mejor esperar a que Henry dé sus respuestas.
Un abrazo a todos. Yo sigo optimista. Gracias a la paciencia y las explicaciones de Rosi, Maya, Javier, Naty y otros colegas, creo que sí las cosas mejorarán.
María
| | | | Javier Herrera (X)
Spanish
| Noone is perfect | Sep 17, 2006 |
Maria Karra wrote:
Moderators of course make mistakes, it's only natural. Don't we all?
Moderators make mistakes, of course. Forum contributors make mistakes. I make mistakes.
Is this the end of the world?
I liked Sandra's contribution when she explained about the nice atmosphere there used to be, BUT people used to make mistakes. At the end of the day, we used to have a nice convivencia, with everyone's virtues and shortcomings, with rules and their enforcement.
Roughly the same people are still aroud. I assume everyone has the same shortcomings and virtues they used to, with rules and their enforcement. This is not convivencia any more. This is Hell.
The outcome of this thread should be finding out what's happened.
Suggestions? Hands up!
J.
| | | | Gabi
Local time: 11:07
German to Spanish
+ ...
| (refloto a Dyran para que no quede tan atrás al momento de aparecer) | Sep 17, 2006 |
Tanto peca el que mata a la vaca... 5:42pm
...como el que le agarra la pata (dicho popular mexicano).
Para empezar, fui una de las personas a las que se sancionó por subir un cuadro negro como imagen en mi perfil. Al preguntar mediante una solicitud de asistencia, esto es lo que me respondieron:
Dear Dyran,
Thanks for using the site.
[Regarding the question you ask] I think Henry is going to announce new rules about pictures, ... See more Tanto peca el que mata a la vaca... 5:42pm
...como el que le agarra la pata (dicho popular mexicano).
Para empezar, fui una de las personas a las que se sancionó por subir un cuadro negro como imagen en mi perfil. Al preguntar mediante una solicitud de asistencia, esto es lo que me respondieron:
Dear Dyran,
Thanks for using the site.
[Regarding the question you ask] I think Henry is going to announce new rules about pictures, so you better wait his explanation.
Valga decir también que tengo tarjeta amarilla (cómo no) y que a partir de este momento, cualquier otra infracción a las reglas (reales o imaginarias) me ganará las consabidas tres equis y la expulsión del sitio.
Dicho lo cual, procedo con mi rollo.
Admito que siempre he deseado ser parte de un foro hecho por profesionales y dirigido exclusivamente a profesionales. En sus inicios (1999), pensé que éste sería el lugar ideal; sin embargo, no fue así (desde mi muy particular punto de vista). Para bien o para mal, se le dio preferencia a la idea de inclusión (absolutamente todos son bienvenidos), de comunidad (foros donde se podía hablar de todo), de convivencia amistosa (reuniones informales), de compartir conocimientos, experiencia y ayuda terminológica (foros y glosarios), de expresar subjetivamente si se trabajaría de nuevo o no con un cliente (listado azul).
Aclaro que nada de eso me parece mal, al contrario. Me fascinaba la idea de que funcionara algo así, básicamente porque: a) el sistema, tal como había sido concebido, se prestaba (y se presta) al abuso, y b) daba la impresión de que no se había considerado que además de colegas, somos competidores (en general) con objetivos dispares. En otras palabras, un sistema que funcionaría perfectamente si no existieran intereses creados, mala fe y competencia desleal. Casi nada.
Hago críticas, cierto. Críticas fuertes, pero no con la intención de dañar, sino con la intención de que se haga algo para mejorar las cosas ya que, aunque cierto es que el sitio le pertenece al dueño para hacer de él lo que mejor le parezca, en ningún momento se nos dijo que dejáramos de opinar, al contrario; se nos animó a hacer sugerencias y a proponer cambios; se nos invitó a dialogar. Poco duró el gusto. Veladamente (y a veces no tanto) se nos ha hecho saber que no se tolerará la disensión. Ciertamente es prerrogativa del dueño, y como ya he dicho, me parece que eso no está a discusión. Lo que desconcierta es que no se haya dejado claro desde el principio. En pocas palabras: las opiniones cuentan, siempre y cuando coincidan con el status quo.
De nuevo, desde mi muy particular punto de vista, pareciera que lo que quiere hacerse ahora es dar marcha atrás y limpiar la casa (cambiar de cálida comunidad a fría empresa) antes de que lleguen los invitados (clientes de renombre), cuando habría sido más fácil tenerla limpia desde el principio, si es que esa era la intención, y ahorrarse dolores de cabeza.
En fin, que esto se pone cada día más feo. Se respira desconfianza, temor y desilusión.
Encima, las respuestas que se reciben por parte de la gerencia son del todo vagas y/o no se aplican a la situación actual y/o intentan restar importancia a los problemas que se han planteado (*). No queda más que preguntarse si lo estarán haciendo a propósito, para despistar.
Para terminar, una sugerencia: consideren (dueño, moderadores y personal) tratar a los participantes en este intercambio como a personas inteligentes y con sentido común, no como a niños malcriados a los que hay que mencionarles al Coco cada dos por tres para que se porten bien.
--
Dyran
(quien lamenta profundamente la salida de participantes valiosos, la intolerancia que reina y la clara preferencia que se da a la sumisión y al conformismo)
(*) Las cuentas claras y el chocolate espeso. Me uno a los que esperan recibir una respuesta satisfactoria al caso de X. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Alicia Casal
Argentina
Local time: 06:07
English to Spanish
+ ...
Que todo esto se aclare pronto, ya que:
Me gustaba contribuir en los Kudoz, y muy a menudo buscaba tèrminos en los mismos;
creo que hay grandes profesionales, miembros y usuarios de este sitio;
y finalmente, veo en este comunidad, personas con valores y ética, con humor, lindísima gente.
Lamentablemente, tendré que poner las notificaciones del foro off por un tiempo ya que la llegada de tantas durante la semana, me dificulta el trabajo, ya ... See more Que todo esto se aclare pronto, ya que:
Me gustaba contribuir en los Kudoz, y muy a menudo buscaba tèrminos en los mismos;
creo que hay grandes profesionales, miembros y usuarios de este sitio;
y finalmente, veo en este comunidad, personas con valores y ética, con humor, lindísima gente.
Lamentablemente, tendré que poner las notificaciones del foro off por un tiempo ya que la llegada de tantas durante la semana, me dificulta el trabajo, ya que no puedo evitar leerlas, opinar, etc.
Un beso grande a todos. ▲ Collapse
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Susana Galilea
United States
Local time: 04:07
English to Spanish
+ ...
| my sentiments, exactly | Sep 17, 2006 |
Javier Herrera wrote:
That she's gone is an opportunity. I'm sure she'll find interlocutors of her high calibre elsewhere. She deserves better.
Atenea, thank you for gracing this community with your great intellect, greater soul and immense heart. Being in contact with people like you, and so many other esteemed colleagues, is the only reason I remain a site user after having cancelled my paid membership. I sincerely hope management will somehow overcome whatever keeps them from understanding the importance of preserving the qualities that made this community a rich, sometimes exquisite, sometimes absurd, always worth visiting environment. Nothing so far gives me much reason to believe this will happen, then again my Patron Saint is St. Jude, patron saint of the lost causes. I am sure this last sentence violated a "no religion" rule. I am also sure it belongs just where I wrote it. Beyond that, I have no comments or suggestions to add to the very complete picture other colleagues have already painted in this thread. My thanks to all for your eloquence and perseverance.
Susana
[Edited at 2006-09-18 00:06]
| | | | | To Belkins: I don't think I broke any rule here | Sep 18, 2006 |
Belkis Díaz-Vidaillet wrote: Henry, Based on the statements quoted below, I direct you to the following thread and expect a sensible explanation as to why this has occurred. " I, for one, simply will not have a situation in which one site user is permitted to disclose personal information about another site user without that person's permission (as has happened recently here). I also will do everything I can to prevent this platform from being used as a place for people to attack one another on a personal level. I would sooner shut down the forums, and in fact the entire site, than to allow this sort of thing to occur." The thread in question: http://www.proz.com/topic/55360 It's contents: My answer to Belkis' ticket Sep 16 Support tickets are confidential, but since you have already "quoted" my answer I am posting below its exact wording: Thanks for your offer "Dear Belkis, Thanks for your kind offer, but I am sorry to say that I have to decline it, as I feel you do not match the special profile we are looking in our new KudoZ editors. Please don't get me wrong, this does not mean you are not a valuable site member and KudoZ participant. Thanks a lot for supporting the site. Enrique" Thank you. Belkis
Belkis,
I don't think I have broken any rule here. You made reference to a ticket and you said
And Henry, I did ask to have editing rights for the same reasons you mentioned; however my request was denied based on (and I quote): "Thank you for your offer but we must decline because we believe you do not possess the right qualities...please don't take it personal, you're a valuable KudoZ contributor".
Now correct me if I am wrong, but when you say "and I quote" you are supposed to transcribe the original message literally, but in fact you did not do so. I therefore felt compelled to post the exact wording of my answer in the ticket.
The only piece of information I believe was added in my posting was my identity as the answerer of your ticket, but this is information about me, not about you, and therefore I felt free to disclose it.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Nikki Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:07
Spanish to English
Enrique wrote:
Now correct me if I am wrong, but when you say "and I quote" you are supposed to transcribe the original message literally, but in fact you did not do so. I therefore felt compelled to post the exact wording of my answer in the ticket.
This is SOOOO pedantic Enrique, but a sign of the times, I fear. If Belkis had misquoted the essence of what you were saying, I would have perhaps understood how you could have felt "compelled" to put her right. But she didn't. The message you gave her was loud and clear. This clutching at straws, this pathetic justification of every move one makes without so much as a hint at an apology is what is making us all so sick and tired of participating in the forums.
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Nikki Graham wrote: Enrique wrote:
Now correct me if I am wrong, but when you say "and I quote" you are supposed to transcribe the original message literally, but in fact you did not do so. I therefore felt compelled to post the exact wording of my answer in the ticket.
This is SOOOO pedantic Enrique, but a sign of the times, I fear. If Belkis had misquoted the essence of what you were saying, I would have perhaps understood how you could have felt "compelled" to put her right. But she didn't. The message you gave her was loud and clear. This clutching at straws, this pathetic justification of every move one makes without so much as a hint at an apology is what is making us all so sick and tired of participating in the forums.
If Belkis did misquote me, it was reasonable for me to quote the exact answer.
If the information in the ticket was very close to what Belkis had quoted, then I did not disclose any new information.
I still don't know what rule I broke here.
Enrique
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Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 11:07
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
At the risk of going supposedly "off-topic", the following:
"Now correct me if I am wrong, but when you say "and I quote" you are supposed to transcribe the original message literally, but in fact you did not do so. I therefore felt compelled to post the exact wording of my answer in the ticket"
Enrique,
Anyone with even a smattering of English will realise that Belkis' summary of your reply is faultless. OK, she didn't use your exact words, but, as a tran... See more At the risk of going supposedly "off-topic", the following:
"Now correct me if I am wrong, but when you say "and I quote" you are supposed to transcribe the original message literally, but in fact you did not do so. I therefore felt compelled to post the exact wording of my answer in the ticket"
Enrique,
Anyone with even a smattering of English will realise that Belkis' summary of your reply is faultless. OK, she didn't use your exact words, but, as a translator, where's the difference in meaning?
Exactly....as I thought: None.
So you "felt compelled to post the exact wording"?
Why didn't you feel "compelled" to abide by your own words. Support requests are confidential; you said so yourself.
Why didn't you simply write a private e-mail saying "I actually said XXX"??
Why have you still not answered her question as to what "special profile" she, or anyone else, now needs to edit questions?
I was able to edit questions for several years. Now I need to be "invited" by someone (who?) and "approved" by another (who?)
Please point out a single occasion on which I misused this right.
Exactly....as I thought: None.
Falta coherencia, respeto y mano izquierda por tu parte.
Andy ▲ Collapse
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 11:07
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
Nikki Graham wrote: Enrique wrote:
Now correct me if I am wrong, but when you say "and I quote" you are supposed to transcribe the original message literally, but in fact you did not do so. I therefore felt compelled to post the exact wording of my answer in the ticket.
This is SOOOO pedantic Enrique, but a sign of the times, I fear. If Belkis had misquoted the essence of what you were saying, I would have perhaps understood how you could have felt "compelled" to put her right. But she didn't. The message you gave her was loud and clear. This clutching at straws, this pathetic justification of every move one makes without so much as a hint at an apology is what is making us all so sick and tired of participating in the forums.
Nikki said it better than me (or was it "I" - I feel compelled to correct myself)
| | | | Nikki Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:07
Spanish to English
| We go round in circles | Sep 18, 2006 |
(and it's way past my beauty sleep time)
Enrique wrote:
If the information in the ticket was very close to what Belkis had quoted, then I did not disclose any new information.
Then there was no reason to feel "compelled" to quote it was there?
| | | | | Explicación en castelano | Sep 18, 2006 |
Dado que el inglés no es mi lengua nativa es posible que haya usado una expresión inadecuada. Déjenme intentarlo nuevamente, esta vez en castellano:
No creo haber violado ninguna regla del sitio en este caso. Belkis hizo referencia al pedido de asistencia diciendo:
And Henry, I did ask to have editing rights for the same reasons you mentioned; however my request was denied based on (and I quote): "Thank you for your offer but we must decline because we believe you do not possess the right qualities...please don't take it personal, you're a valuable KudoZ contributor".
Puedo estar equivocado, pero entiendo que cuando en inglés alguien dice "and I quote" se supone que va a transcribir un mensaje en forma literal.
Dado que Belkis no lo hizo así, me pareció razonable presentar el texto exacto de la respuesta al ticket. La única información adicional revelada en mi posting es que fui yo quien respondió el ticket, pero eso es información sobre mí, no sobre Belkis.
¿Puedo inquirir en qué consiste la presunta violación de privacidad de mi posting?
Saludos,
Enrique
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Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 05:07
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
| about the support ticket: difference | Sep 18, 2006 |
Andy Watkinson wrote:
Enrique,
Anyone with even a smattering of English will realise that Belkis' summary of your reply is faultless. OK, she didn't use your exact words, but, as a translator, where's the difference in meaning?
Exactly....as I thought: None.
So you "felt compelled to post the exact wording"?
Hi Andy,
Sorry for interfering, but I do see a not-so-slight difference between what Enrique and what Belkis wrote.
This
- Thank you for your offer but we must decline because we believe you do not possess the right qualities. (Belkis)
is different from this
- Thanks for your kind offer, but I am sorry to say that I have to decline it, as I feel you do not match the special profile we are looking in our new KudoZ editors. (Enrique)
"we believe you do not possess the right qualities" and "I feel you do not match the special profile we are looking for" are not the same thing.
I don't think Enrique would ever tell someone that (s)he doesn't possess "the right qualities"; he's the one who always reminds moderators that they should not act as linguistic authorities and make judgements on other people's qualifications. What he said is that the profile staff is looking for is different. Not better, not worse; just different.
Now, I know this about Enrique (that he wouldn't make such judgments and offend anyone) because I've worked with him in the moderators group for years. But had I not known him and had I not seen his exact reply to Belkis, by reading that thread I'd be quite angry, I'd think "who does this person think he is, telling a member that she doesn't have the right qualities"? Now wouldn't that be unfair?
I am sorry if this also sounds like a pathetic justification, it's not meant to be a justification, only my opinion.
Also, what is the information that was disclosed without the other person's consent? Enrique's name? Could someone clarify?
Maria
[Edited at 2006-09-18 01:14]
| | | | | Maybe it's only cosmetic, but there is a difference. | Sep 18, 2006 |
To tell someone "we don't think you possess the right qualities" sounds a lot harsher to me than "you do not match the special profile we are looking for." If I were misquoted as being so tacky as to tell someone that s/he does not "possess the right qualities," I too would want to let it be known that I had said it more diplomatically.
OK, maybe I'm being pedantic too, but I do have more than a smattering of English.
Why am I bothering to comment on this relatively min... See more To tell someone "we don't think you possess the right qualities" sounds a lot harsher to me than "you do not match the special profile we are looking for." If I were misquoted as being so tacky as to tell someone that s/he does not "possess the right qualities," I too would want to let it be known that I had said it more diplomatically.
OK, maybe I'm being pedantic too, but I do have more than a smattering of English.
Why am I bothering to comment on this relatively minor point? Because it's the only thing in this forum that's concrete enough for an outsider like me to understand. I hope that someday I'll find out what's going on.
Meanwhile, this is still the best translators' site I've ever seen, and I treasure every one of you, my colleagues--even the ones I disagree with. Please don't leave!
[Edited at 2006-09-18 02:11] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 11:07
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
| ¿Tienes una respuesta o no? | Sep 18, 2006 |
Enrique:
Why didn't you simply write a private e-mail saying "I actually said XXX"??
Why have you still not answered her question as to what "special profile" she, or anyone else, now needs to edit questions?
I was able to edit questions for several years. Now I need to be "invited" by someone (who?) and "approved" by another (who?)
Please point out a single occasion on which I misused this right.
Exactly....as I thought: None."... See more Enrique:
Why didn't you simply write a private e-mail saying "I actually said XXX"??
Why have you still not answered her question as to what "special profile" she, or anyone else, now needs to edit questions?
I was able to edit questions for several years. Now I need to be "invited" by someone (who?) and "approved" by another (who?)
Please point out a single occasion on which I misused this right.
Exactly....as I thought: None."
Parece que lo que hay es mucha facilidad para censurar (cambio de títulos, candado para los temas "espinosos", eliminación de fotos, eliminación del derecho a participar en los foros) pero POCAS respuestas.
Por si no hubiera quedado claro entre tanta palabrería, Enrique, contesta a la gente con claridad y deja de andar por la ramas.
Saludos,
Andy ▲ Collapse
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