| Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Did I miss something? Автор темы: Madeleine van Zanten
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Kevin Lossner 
Португалия
Local time: 21:56
немецкий => английский
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| Virtual and online associations | Jul 3, 2009 |
Sara Freitas-Maltaverne wrote:
... Ralf seems very involved and has taken on a leadership role (in the networking sense of the term) so he probably DOES get the kind of quality contacts he is looking for. Just like I get the kind of quality contacts I want out of the networks where I give the most...
The only bone I have to pick with translators is that I would like to see more of them invest in their local translator associations (where there is more of a focus on advancing the profession for ALL of us) AND invest in a commercial portal like Proz (rather than investing a web portal *instead of* a professional association).
Quality contacts do indeed come and even in recent days, though I do often fail to check whether a contact came via ProZ, my web sites, my listing in the local translators' association (BDÜ) directory or elsewhere. To some extent I can do this using the e-mail address on which I receive the mail, and I can't complain about much of the traffic I get via my profile here. I do get a few idiots ("lonely" ladies and obvious financial scammers), bottom feeders and time-wasters, but most are quite reasonable regardless of whether I find their proposals interesting.
I think, however, that you overrate the local associations. I derive significant benefit from mine - my online directory listing there is solid gold - but much of the attitude I encounter there is bullshit. There are the same number of clueless beginners who don't know how to deal with VAT or even write an invoice, and some members are more worried about building fences around the profession to exclude those making a second career than they are about getting their act together and delivering good work. Many excellent translators I know are simply not eligible to join. I find it more than laughable that a secretary with a diploma in translation is considered more "qualified" to translate a research publication in biochemistry than a biochemical researcher with a recognized foreign qualification for translation and 25+ years of experience in the lab. It inspires real contempt in me, actually, but they have cheap deals on insurance and a few bright boys & girls, so I'll stick it out. In no way, however, have I found that lofty community to be any better than the crowd I've met at ProZ events, where I have met many excellent professional colleagues. Some even dare to use their real names. Whatever this platform does to soil itself - and occasionally that is a lot - has nothing to do with them personally. Like Ralf said, all parts of the market are found here - from the dregs, the thieves, the unserious part-timers and the good ones, clueless wannabes, plodders, average worker bee translators and top-rate, creative pros. Welcome to all of them; it's easy enough for a discerning nose to tel where the fish are rotten. Anywhere.
These outrage threads about lousy rates miss the point. Abusively low job rates are simply fun. How often do you encounter people stupid enough to trust professional work to those willing to work for less than a bus boy or dishwasher might make? I can amuse myself for a whole evening with a few bottles of good wine and a stack of such job printouts just imagining the results! In fact, one of these days I might add a few zeroes behind the decimal place and do my own job posting - say 1000 words for USD 0.001 per word - just for the entertainment value. That's cheaper than a movie ticket and will probably result in more laughs than a good comedy.
| | | | Taija Hyvönen
Финляндия
Local time: 23:56
Член ProZ.com c 2008
английский => финский
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Kevin Lossner wrote:
These outrage threads about lousy rates miss the point. Abusively low job rates are simply fun.
Why WHY would take them seriously and get upset? It's BUSINESS, it's not PERSONAL. I get ridiculous offers right in my own inbox, I laugh them off! Dream on, dear three-cent outsourcer, I have work to do... and if it's not urgent, I write them an overly courteous reply just to show off how good my English is compared to theirs.
As for the original question about why these offers are allowed on ProZ, I'm with Ralf. ProZ does not dictate acceptable rates.
| | | | | This is mean! | Jul 3, 2009 |
Taija Salo wrote: Kevin Lossner wrote:
These outrage threads about lousy rates miss the point. Abusively low job rates are simply fun. I laugh them off! Dream on, dear three-cent outsourcer, I have work to do... and if it's not urgent, I write them an overly courteous reply just to show off how good my English is compared to theirs.
Taija, this is mean!
Having said that, I entirely agree. Every time we see these rates, we in the office decide that we will start a career as cleaners, as in Spain they make more money than the translators accepting these jobs.
| | | | Sara Freitas
Франция
Local time: 22:56
французский => английский
| Agree completely | Jul 4, 2009 |
Kevin Lossner wrote:
I think, however, that you overrate the local associations. I derive significant benefit from mine - my online directory listing there is solid gold - but much of the attitude I encounter there is bullshit.
Kevin,
I couldn't agree with you more.
The professsional associations are what they are (I don't think I overrate them - I think I have a pretty realistic view of them), but AFIK, they are the only bodies out there trying to advance the profession FOR translators. I guess I stay active because as a freelance translator who seems to be getting along better than average I want to "give back" by supporting other up and coming translators who want to be successful.
Unlike you, I don't think I have EVER won a client from my listing in the SFT directory (I keep telling myself it is because my name doesn't sound "anglo-saxon" enough and clients must not believe I really am a native English speaker . What I have gained, however (in addition to benefits like cheap insurance, etc.) are personal contacts that have been very useful in my business.
Most of my other networking (and champagne and petit fours) needs are fulfilled by the chamber of commerce and other professional or volunteer groups I belong to.
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Ralf Lemster
Германия
Local time: 22:56
английский => немецкий
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| Thanks, polyglot | Jul 4, 2009 |
Hi again,
Sorry for the delay in responding - I wasn't online last night (for a change...).
First of all, I was not (mis)quoting you at all. I was referring in general to all of those contributors who seemed to be singing from the same hymn sheet.
Fair enough.
Secondly, "Why should it not be posted?" - I was referring here to the fact that since they started messing around with the moderator function, non-member postings, which have to be vetted, often get stuck in the ether for up to 24 to 48 hours and by the time they appear have been overtaken by events.
That's unfortunate and interesting at the same time.
When people pay to join a site, especially one that rejoices in the name of "ProZ", they expect to find themselves among professionals of similar standing to themselves. I'm not saying ProZ or anyone else should set minima or maxima, just that by being totally unselective about its members (as long as they make no fuss or waves) and by encouraging every Tom, Dick and Harry to take up translating in the knowledge that by asking questions via ProZ they can make a living (of sorts), it is opening the door to abuse. The customer who wants the cheapest deal knows where to go to find the translator who will agree to work for a pittance. This is building the wrong sort of bridges in my view.
In my view, ProZ.com's openness has always been a double-edged sword: it's the key to the site's success, but of course, it also allows access to all sorts of users where one would probably dread seeing the results of a 'translation'. On balance, however, I believe that the openness is beneficial - besides, who's to draw the line?
And again, you slipped in a back-hander about "professionals" and "names" and have offered me a chance to explain that, as an extremely qualified (not my words) and highly experienced (i.e. old!) translator, I simply do not wish to be bothered with requests from the bottom end of the market.
Thanks for explaining - let me do the same. I have no problem with people using a nickname in an online forum, yet I feel awkward talking to an anonymous source. As I said, it's probably just me.
Like Sara, my customers come from elsewhere and pay, without quibbling, the sort of rates that some might judge outrageous. Like Sara, I belong to other associations and feel no need to join this site as a paying member. I therefore choose to keep a low profile by not vouchsafing my real name. If the people of ProZ were really "pros", as I think they probably were when the site first began, I might take another line. As it is.......
You may want to take a look at the 'Certified Pro' scheme. One can criticise the name and scope, as well as the 'certification' details, but I believe this is a move in the right direction.
Well, to some extent I already did. The fact is that people wanting cheap deals know that sites like this are a kind of Dutch auction and they can be pretty certain to get somebody who - for whatever reason - will work at the sort of pathetic rates most of us deplore, if only because they live in places where the sums that make us cringe are actually acceptable to them.
You'd be surprised to see the rock-bottom prices quoted by translators living in high-cost locations. On the other hand, quite a number of translators in (so-called) low-cost countries charge pretty decent prices. As I see it, the problem is not sub-standard quality, but very much sub-standard business skills.
Sites like this have fostered this development. Before, outsourcers had to work a lot harder to find people prepared to work for peanuts. In addition so many good souls out there are always willing to give the rank beginners a helping hand by answering their batteries of questions. This enables them to cobble up a halfway decent translation and live to fight another day.
And why not? Even some good clues to terminology won't make a really good translation. I guess you can't have your cake and eat it - access to global markets without facing global competition is pretty much an illusion.
Of course, there are surely people who know value when they see it and are prepared to pay for good work. You say you have found clients through the site at decent rates. I believe you but I'd be curious to know how many have come your way of late and how many date from the 'good old days" of the site? I suspect that nowadays, such cases are the exception rather than the rule.... for the reasons I mentioned above.
Not that long ago, but also not very recent. But this is probably also due to the fact that I'm more active as an outsourcer here.
Have a nice weekend!
Ralf
| | | | | One last word | Jul 4, 2009 |
Many thanks, Ralf, for your reactions.
Bascially, despite initial appearances, I think we are more or less on the same wavelength.
However, you said " guess you can't have your cake and eat it - access to global markets without facing global competition is pretty much an illusion" and I would merely respond that, for my part, I do not need access to global markets (that said, the results of my labours concern the global market). My clients are right here where I live but then ... See more Many thanks, Ralf, for your reactions.
Bascially, despite initial appearances, I think we are more or less on the same wavelength.
However, you said " guess you can't have your cake and eat it - access to global markets without facing global competition is pretty much an illusion" and I would merely respond that, for my part, I do not need access to global markets (that said, the results of my labours concern the global market). My clients are right here where I live but then I only have a handful anyway. Please don't tell me that is not good business sense because in general I would agree with you. In my particular case, for my particular needs, it works just fine and the day it all stops, then I will stop too.
That minor detail aside (the point of which was to demonstrate that we are all different), there is one thing you said that truly surprised me: you praised the certified pro system.
Allow me to express my shock that you, someone whose professionalism is unquestioned and unquestionable, should seem to endorse a scheme I consider to be little more than a farce. Now I may have totally misunderstood things and if this were the case, I should be happy to be put right but, as I read it, the scheme is not based on merit, there are no tests or exams, no submission of a portfolio of sample work, no assessment by peers or by a panel of experts, etc. So basically we are talking about self-certification. Worse still, if any of these people are found wanting or deemed inadequate in any way, there is no provision for withdrawing their "P" label. Which means that the first time a client has a bad experience with one of these self-proclaimed certified translators, the reputation of the scheme and all its other members stands to suffer.
Let's be fair: how many people are truly capable of judging their own skills and capabilities objectively? There will always be those who underestimate and those who overestimate their own abilities.
I would find the scheme much more interesting if there were proper checks and balances in place. However, I admit that this is virtually impossible on what is, as Sara reminded us, a commercial portal (statement of fact and not value judgment). The site cannot and certainly wouldn't - I hope - want to set itself up as a self-appointed authority in this field. (wow - that makes quite a lot of "selfs"!)
So I am fascinated to know what value you find in the whole exercise...... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The detrimental mechanism | Jul 4, 2009 |
Ralf Lemster wrote: polyglot45 wrote:
IMO sites like this that give people a place to post their cut-rate jobs are actually CONTRIBUTING to the state of the market, not just reflecting it. Would you mind explaining that mechanism?
Let me try..
I wonder what would happen to the stock market if only the buying rates down to the lowest would be shown on the first page, and even worse, analogically to the job offer system, only the lower half of the buying rates!
There is clearly a need for a better balanced presentation of the overall market, to prevent a translator's Black Friday.
Maybe a table of the number of project enquiries (per month or year) against the standard rates of the contacted translators would be feasable and helpful? This is just an idea, someone involved in statistics will know what to look for.
Happy weekend,
Harry
| | | | Stanislaw Czech, MCIL CL
Великобритания
Local time: 21:56
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => польский
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ЛОКАЛИЗАТОР САЙТА | Maybe that could help | Jul 4, 2009 |
Inspired by this discussion I have just posted on a forum ProZ.com suggestions - a suggestion http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_suggestions/139337-filtering_job_posts_by_price.html that maybe it would be good idea if we were able to filter out job posts which offer less than set value per word.
I am afraid that it may be impossible to get... See more Inspired by this discussion I have just posted on a forum ProZ.com suggestions - a suggestion http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_suggestions/139337-filtering_job_posts_by_price.html that maybe it would be good idea if we were able to filter out job posts which offer less than set value per word.
I am afraid that it may be impossible to get rid of job posts offering very low rates but is should be feasible for ProZ's team of programers to implement such feature and allow members who like Madeleine don't want to waste their time for reading such offers to filter them out.
What do you think?
Stanislaw ▲ Collapse
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Lia Fail (X)
Испания
Local time: 22:56
испанский => английский
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| slammimg Madeline | Jul 5, 2009 |
madeleine van Zanten wrote:
Dutch to French translation 0.025 EUR/ word from an agency in Luxembourg - did I miss something? Since when are translation rates below proofing or editing rates?
On opening the first pasge of this discussion early on, I was pretty shocked at how Madeleine was slammed. OK the issue has been brought up many times before, but many of the people who slammed her are still participating in the forum - which only goes to show that the issue has many facets.
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Испания
Local time: 22:56
испанский => английский
+ ...
polyglot45 wrote:
if ever this gets posted......
True as it may be that posts about rock-bottom rates are frequent, there is an element in this post that is slightly different and, in my view, has not been addressed in the disparaging comments made to its author.
She will correct me if I am wrong but her point seems to be that if you pay to be a member of a site - this one or any other - you have the right to expect a little protection against the (many) bottom-feeders of this world.
The response that the site is only reflecting the laws of the marketplace is - sorry folks - somewhat specious in my eyes. IMO sites like this that give people a place to post their cut-rate jobs are actually CONTRIBUTING to the state of the market, not just reflecting it.
And that is where the danger lies.
That said, I am surely p***ing into the proverbial violin......
sorry, error:-(
[Edited at 2009-07-05 00:37 GMT]
| | | | | But ProZ is not the whole market | Jul 5, 2009 |
Harry Bornemann wrote:
I wonder what would happen to the stock market if only the buying rates down to the lowest would be shown on the first page, and even worse, analogically to the job offer system, only the lower half of the buying rates!
I'm afraid this analogy doesn't work. In order for it to be a valid, the job offers on ProZ would have to be seen as a representative of the whole translation market, instead of being, at best, a fraction of the lower part of it.
| | | | | Nobody reacts 100% rationally | Jul 5, 2009 |
Riccardo Schiaffino wrote:
I'm afraid this analogy doesn't work. In order for it to be a valid, the job offers on ProZ would have to be seen as a representative of the whole translation market, instead of being, at best, a fraction of the lower part of it.
Knowledge and believe can protect somewhat against unbalanced information, but I doubt that they can compensate the influencing effect completely.
I rather feel this topic comes up and up like rotten meat because there is really something wrong.
Best,
Harry
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Франция
Local time: 22:56
французский => немецкий
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Harry Bornemann wrote:
I rather feel this topic comes up and up like rotten meat because there is really something wrong.
Best,
Harry
The worms go in
And the worms go out
The worms that go in
Are lean and thin
The worms that go out
Are fat and stout
Be merry, my friends, be merry
[Edited at 2009-07-05 16:15 GMT]
| | | | | Silly outsourcers! | Jul 5, 2009 |
Kevin Lossner wrote:
It's very generous of outsourcers to offer rates like this when they could in many cases get equivalent or better quality for free using Babelfish or Google's MT.
That's what I often tell them, when they offer rates below 50% of the market average, as indicated by Proz's page on "rates" per language pair.
I have been hired now and then to 'fix' translation work apparently done at these low rates, and supposedly rejected pointblank by language-savvy end-clients. Though the flaws are visibly different (viz. fledgling translator vs. machine translation), the overall average quality level is very much the same.
So I advise such outsourcers to use free machine translation instead. If it sticks, and the end-client accepts that kind of 'work', they'll have made a larger profit. If it doesn't, they'll have more money left to have it redone from scratch by a qualified professional.
A good outsourcer will search among the most adequate translators to do a specific job to find one offering an affordable cost. A bad outsourcer will seek the cheapest translator to do it, regardless. In the latter case, nobody can beat free MT costs. So why do they bother to find human translators?
There is an additional range of translations, usually around 75% of the average rate. Their work will often pass inspection by non-translating bilinguals. Its peculiar features are:
a) A spell checker won't find anything wrong there.
b) Very few grammar errors will be noticeable.
c) A bilingual reader won't be able to refrain from mentally back-translating the text to understand the ideas.
d) Monoglot readers will often be puzzled.
Unfortunately, this kind of translation is extremely popular among multilingual web sites, some translation agencies' included.
| | | | Testeronline
Румыния
Local time: 23:56
английский => румынский
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| Very thoughtful post | Jul 5, 2009 |
polyglot45 wrote:
if ever this gets posted......
True as it may be that posts about rock-bottom rates are frequent, there is an element in this post that is slightly different and, in my view, has not been addressed in the disparaging comments made to its author.
She will correct me if I am wrong but her point seems to be that if you pay to be a member of a site - this one or any other - you have the right to expect a little protection against the (many) bottom-feeders of this world.
The response that the site is only reflecting the laws of the marketplace is - sorry folks - somewhat specious in my eyes. IMO sites like this that give people a place to post their cut-rate jobs are actually CONTRIBUTING to the state of the market, not just reflecting it.
And that is where the danger lies.
That said, I am surely p***ing into the proverbial violin......
Gratz!
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