James (Jim) Davis Oct 10, 2011:

@Daniela Sorry to be disagreeable, not my intention, but now you are misquoting me, which is not very agreeable at all. Again, I am sorry, but I see it as a question of basic principles, hence my firm reaction.

However I used no imperatives, to copy and paste "You can't go rewriting the Italian. You could put 'huge post-earthquake reconstruction funds scandal' in a footnote, for readers who failed to read between the lines." I did say "you can't" perhaps I should have prefixed it with "IMHO". Then I suggested a footnote with "could" accepting that some readers would "fail to read between the lines".
If you will forgive me, you seem to have "rewritten" me, too!

Daniela Panayotova Oct 10, 2011:

@Jim A linguistic discussion is indeed very welcome, it is just a bit disagreeable when it uses certain patronising tones like "don't rewrite Italian and tell the reader how to read between the lines". Otherwise, you are very welcome to express your opinions, they could perhaps even be interesting.

James (Jim) Davis Oct 10, 2011:

@Lorraine I had missed this in my last reply
"I was trying to help the asker, ... I was **not telling him** what to write where and was just suggesting that he might need to clarify further". Well the answer box is where you suggest what you think the asker should write. As I have said, I feel that intellectually there is an important matter of intellectual principle here, For example it goes back to Luther. Did he go too far, in his liberal translations? How far can you go for "explanation's sake"?

This discussion area here is for clarification and other things. As for nettiquette, big smileys are :) :) free and gladly given, but please respect my right to express an opinion of principle on which I feel strongly :) and I do love a good discussion (not a fight).

Lorraine Buckley (X) Oct 10, 2011:

@Jim I think this 'discussion' has gone on far too long, and that the problem is not so much in what is thought/felt by those discussing as how it is expressed. It's not a question of right or wrong, and askers freely choose what may not always seem to us the best solution. But we are all here to help one another rather than bite people's heads off, so I think there should be just a little more moderation in our expressions (netiquette, not treating others as inferior or making them feel that that is what you think, etc). Big smileys, respectful debate and helpful suggestions all round :-)

James (Jim) Davis Oct 10, 2011:

@To Phil "footnotes are a distraction" Do you want to ban footnotes, because they are a distraction? They don't sit well in novels, and especially in thrillers, where the pace of the narrative can be everything, but academics throughout the world use them everyday, to explain and add extra information.

James (Jim) Davis Oct 10, 2011:

@Lorraine and Daniela Sorry to disagree, but that is what the disagree box is for. My disagreement is purely intellectual, but it is very strong. I think this is an issue of drawing a line, where "liberal" translation has to stop, because at a certain point the translator becomes the author and is no longer translating but authoring. Daniela, if this isn't the place for this type of linguistic discussion, where else?

Lorraine Buckley (X) Oct 8, 2011:

@Francis Sorry, of course you knew which earthquake it was - I was just answering in the middle of a translation I am doing, and failed to register that it was Phil asking the q about the earthquake!

Lorraine Buckley (X) Oct 8, 2011:

As a matter of interest, @ Francis Is the author of the text a certain Andrea Cinquegrani? If so, he appears to write the same story quite often. There is a very similar story in La Voce delle Voci, a monthly opposition/investigative newspaper specializing in scandals involving politicians in Campania and elsewhere. There he mentions how VMG was involved in all the "imprese" del dopo terremoto..... (he put it in inverted commas)... so he obviously likes the 'entrepreneurial'/'big business' phraseology..... as to whether this translates literally into English, your choice...

F Filippi (asker) Oct 8, 2011:

Actually, I am Italian, I know what earthquake it was talking about. I knew about the scandals. I just wanted to know if there is a common English way to say that.

Lorraine Buckley (X) Oct 8, 2011:

@ Jim I think we have different ways of saying the same thing. I was trying to help the asker, who, as you say, didn't know which earthquake this was. I was not telling him what to write where and was just suggesting that he might need to clarify further (what he puts in a translator's note is then up to him). That it is not in the source text is a given, in the same way that a writer in England could write generically about phone-tapping and all English readers right now would know the News International/Murdoch affair was being referred to; but in another country in 15 years' time, very few would recognize the reference. Please let's not fight over it!

James (Jim) Davis Oct 8, 2011:

@Lorraine My disagree (I didn't post by the way, I seldom disagree when I am posting myself) is strong because you are rewriting and adding background and explanation which is not present in the source text. The correct place for this in a translator's note. Phil didn't even know which earthquake it was and this is precisely the information which should go in footnotes or even in brackets, which makes a clear distinction between what the author wrote and what you are saying. This is simply a question of academic rigour.

Lorraine Buckley (X) Oct 7, 2011:

More on Italian earthquakes and their 'day after's The earthquake in Irpinia (1980):
The 1980 “Irpinia earthquake” took place in the Irpinia region in southern Italy on Sunday, November 23, 1980. Measuring 6.89on the Richter Scale, the quake... killed 2,914 people, injured >10,000 and left 300,000 homeless.

The day after: The Italian government spent 59 billion lire on reconstruction, ...other nations sent contributions. Germany 32 million (USD) and the U.S. 70 million USD.
However, in the early nineties a major corruption scandal emerged of the billions of lire that actually disappeared from the earthquake reconstruction funds in the 1980s. Of the $40 billion (or 40 thousand million) spent on earthquake reconstruction, an estimated $20 billion (or 20 thousand million) went to create an entirely new social class of millionaires in the region, $6.4 billion (or 6,400 million) went to the Camorra, whereas another $4 billion (or 4,000 million) went to politicians in bribes. Only the remaining $9.6 billion (or 9,600 million), a quarter of the total amount, was actually spent on people's needs.
http://betweentwosouths.blogspot.com/2009/04/in-italy-bureau...

F Filippi (asker) Oct 7, 2011:

Ok, "speculations" would better of course. What about "dirty" or "criminal business"?

SYLVY75 Oct 7, 2011:

Francis, the word 'affari' here means the big speculations and the not-so-honest business Mr Greco made after the Irpinia earthquake. This guy seems to have been involved in most of the biggest Italian scandals of the 1980s and 1990s.

F Filippi (asker) Oct 7, 2011:

Can i say: "post/after-earthquake business"?

F Filippi (asker) Oct 7, 2011:

It does not say much more about the business but it probably refers to rebuilding business. Thank you to "Missdutch" to publish the biographical reference.

P.L.F. Persio Oct 7, 2011:

A ansty piece of work: Look at his resumé: http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/1999/giugno/04/ingegnere_...
Vincenzo Greco, pluri - indagato, da sempre al centro di una vicenda di cui si discute fin dall' inizio L' ingegnere dell' eterna Tangentopoli Dalla ricostruzione in Irpinia con Pomicino all' affare delle Ferrovie con Necci Il Consiglio di Stato stabili' che la spartizione era regolare e che i contratti andavano rispettati ROMA - L' ingegner Vincenzo Maria Greco, napoletano cinquantatreenne, a suo modo detiene un record: quando s' indaga sull' alta velocita' ferroviaria c' e' sempre. Esordi' nella Tangentopoli "classica" nel giugno del ' 93. Rispunto' nello scandalone Necci del settembre ' 96. Torno' in ballo l' anno scorso insieme a Pierfrancesco Pacini Battaglia. Rieccolo oggi agli arresti domiciliari per l' intreccio Icla - Fs - Giubileo. Vincenzo Maria Greco, protagonista della progettazione dell' alta velocita' , e prima ancora considerato il regista dei grandi appalti della ricostruzione dopo il terremoto dell' Irpinia, legato all' ex ministro del Bilancio Paolo Cirino Pomicino.

philgoddard Oct 7, 2011:

OK, thanks, but I still don't understand the full context. Who is this guy, and what are the "affari"?

F Filippi (asker) Oct 7, 2011:

It is real It talks about a real eartquake, the one of Irpinia in the South of Italy - 1980. In Italian we use this expression, "dopo terremoto", to talk about whatever happens a big eartquake, in particulat the rebuilding and the business dealing with it, such as in this case.

P.L.F. Persio Oct 7, 2011:

No, Phil, I think it's literally about the Irpinia earthquake in 1980:
http://www.abruzzo24ore.tv/news/La-ricostruzione-dell-Irpini...

philgoddard Oct 7, 2011:

I assume terremoto is metaphorical rather than literal, but we need some more context please.