| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21] > | translation is dead as a profession Thread poster: Daniel Rich
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Michele Fauble 
United States
Local time: 06:14
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| Variants of a language may differ more than some languages | Jun 30, 2022 |
Korana Lasić wrote: Michele Fauble wrote:
A native speaker of European Portuguese translating into Brazilian Portuguese or a native speaker of Brazilian Portuguese translating into European Portuguese would be like a native speaker of Danish translating into Norwegian or a native speaker of Norwegian translating into Danish.
It's suprising how little some people here consider actual linguistics and even common sense when you come up with your "professional" opinions. And no, comparing a single pluricentric language, however heterogeneous it might be, to two completely different however similar languages isn't exactly sound linguistic either, though it's most definitely much less absurd than the "I've never met" metric!
If you were familiar with the languages discussed here, I’m sure you would have a different opinion.
If you’ve studied linguistics (I have), you should know that what counts as a language vs a variant of a language is determined not only by linguistic features, but also by historical and political factors, and that the differences between variants of a language may be greater than the differences between some languages.
| | | | | Well, If the pluricentric variants are insurmountable, then so are the dialects! | Jun 30, 2022 |
Michele Fauble wrote: Korana Lasić wrote: Michele Fauble wrote:
A native speaker of European Portuguese translating into Brazilian Portuguese or a native speaker of Brazilian Portuguese translating into European Portuguese would be like a native speaker of Danish translating into Norwegian or a native speaker of Norwegian translating into Danish.
It's suprising how little some people here consider actual linguistics and even common sense when you come up with your "professional" opinions. And no, comparing a single pluricentric language, however heterogeneous it might be, to two completely different however similar languages isn't exactly sound linguistic either, though it's most definitely much less absurd than the "I've never met" metric! If you were familiar with the languages discussed here, I’m sure you would have a different opinion. If you’ve studied linguistics (I have), you should know that what counts as a language vs a variant of a language is determined not only by linguistic features, but also by historical and political factors, and that the differences between variants of a language may be greater than the differences between some languages.
You still haven't answered my questions! Why stop at pluricentric variants because in the language we both speak and the linguistics of which I have trained in, to answer your question, the differences between dialects within a variant can be bigger than the difference between that variant and another pluricentric variant. Namely, British English vs its 10 main dialects (or its 40 spoken dialects) and/or vs US/Canadian standard English.
You now want to discuss to what extent culture is crucial to language and specifically to the pluricentricity of languages like Portuguese (or Spanish) without ever answering my questions about dialect vs pluricentric variant in general and in English or even Swedish. That's nothing but moving the goalpost.
Simple question for you: Can a person that grew up speaking Welsh English ever learn RP enough to make English their translation target? Yes or now?
The Welsh English speaker and the English English speaker differ in culture to a noticeable extent and the Welsh even have another very, very different language that represents their culture and informs their English dialect.
So now this gets us to "only the English RP speakers can be the only true representatives of British English '', but then we have the question which one? Should a person who grew up speaking Brummie before they ever went to school and went to school where people with regional Brummie + RP dialects taught ever be allowed to claim British English as their native language or are the speakers who grew up speaking pure RP in the house and then went to school taught by speakers of BBC English, Queen's English, Conservative RP the only true representatives of British English? What about modern RP and Estuary speakers? Where does that leave them?
Can you really not follow the absurd path this leads us down? Since, if the pluricentric variants are insurmountable then so are the dialects.
Also, is it your claim that the two Portuguese variants differ more than Norwegian and Danish do? Which variants differ more than which separate languages? Can we refrain from vague claims and be precise in our speech when discussing serious linguistic matters? Is that too much to ask?
I've said about everything I have to say about pluricentricity, especially to someone deflecting, so I'll stop here.
Let me just say that I have nothing against people being honest and saying they cannot do something, that's fair enough.
What I find scandalous is when people who can't do something project that on every other person in their language pair, try to extend their basic psychological projection onto all pluricentricity, strawman anyone who tries to have a serious linguistic discussion, move the goalpost, and try to claim basic confirmation bias as some sort of linguistic metric.
Btw, I completely agree with the "historical, and political, and cultural factors" point you've made, but the question is to what extent and "which precise thing". Nobody ever claimed the two Portuguese aren't different. The question was, can someone make that difference their linguistic/translation specialism.
[Edited at 2022-06-30 06:51 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:14
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Korana Lasić wrote:
..... since we are discussing linguistics and pluricentricity
We're discussing "translation is dead as a profession".
| | | | expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 14:14
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
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is translation dead as a profession?
| | | | Juno Bos
Zambia
Local time: 15:14
Member (2011)
German to Dutch
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| Dead or lost | Jun 30, 2022 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
is translation dead as a profession?
Might be, but not in the way as stated.
I just posted a job with a (imho) good rate, but the majority of quotes I received so far are way below that. I am lost at this point.
[Edited at 2022-06-30 11:58 GMT]
[Edited at 2022-06-30 12:03 GMT]
| | | | expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 14:14
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| Here's one more thought | Jun 30, 2022 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
is translation dead as a profession?
Here's one more thought in addition to my first posts:
Languages have limits by nature, but our brains can overcome those limits and our thoughts can’t exactly be conveyed by machines.
When we communicate such thoughts, we make use of analogies and other abstractions, instead of describing directly concepts (like machines do), and we always try to "guide" our readers/listeners into discovering those same thoughts, simply because machines can’t put those into words.
For a machine to be able to do that, it needs to master more than just translation of words and sentences, it needs also be able to think, and I believe this will be impossible.
Machines will only think like humans, if humans try to "humanise" them, and honestly, I'm not seeing any of us giving that advantage to machines! No human would like to be replaced by a machine with "feelings".
Let's look at translating humour, local sayings, idioms, literature and poetry, fiction, live speech, highly and very complex technical texts... we will always need human experts, and in the art of communicating we will always need translators and interpreters!
As one of my former translation teachers said to me once: "languages are too vivid and dynamic to be fit in machine frames".
| | | | | Translators are already holding down the self-destruct button | Jun 30, 2022 |
expressisverbis wrote:
Machines will only think like humans, if humans try to "humanise" them, and honestly, I'm not seeing any of us giving that advantage to machines! No human would like to be replaced by a machine with "feelings".
I agree with everything else you say, Exy, but I'm not sure about this. Most translators seem happy to hasten their own demise by collaborating with MT. Extrapolate that to humanity in general and...
Korana wrote:
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For the record, I would dispute pretty much everything you said about English, Welsh, Swedish, Danish and Norwegian, all of which are languages I know a thing or two about. I might be able to do a really good impression of an American but I would never actually be one, so I would never want to try to write like one.
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Not dead yet, but the international competition is really harsh nowadays.
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 06:14
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Degree of difference | Jun 30, 2022 |
Korana Lasić wrote:
Also, is it your claim that the two Portuguese variants differ more than Norwegian and Danish do?
This is off topic, so I’ll respond to this, and then say no more.
Based on my knowledge of the languages.
Pronunciation: Similar (considerable) difference.
Vocabulary: Greater difference Brazilian Portuguese vs European Portuguese.
Grammar: Greater difference Brazilian Portuguese vs European Portuguese.
Spelling: Greater difference Danish vs Norwegian.
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 06:14
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| And to get back to the topic | Jun 30, 2022 |
Received this offer yesterday:
Looking for a translator Swedish to English
Budget
$0.01 per word
| | | | Charles R.
Local time: 17:14
Member (2022)
German to French
+ ...
| We'll soon see rates | Jul 1, 2022 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
Received this offer yesterday:
Looking for a translator Swedish to English
Budget
$0.01 per word
We'll soon see rates that even the AI will refuse to work for.
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Sadek_A
Local time: 17:14
English to Arabic
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Michele Fauble wrote:
Received this offer yesterday:
Looking for a translator Swedish to English
Budget
$0.01 per word
I will say it outright: they are doing exactly what they were ENABLED to do.
The true blame lies with the systems/platforms/sites/etc. that made -and continue to make- it possible!
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Charles R. wrote:
We'll soon see rates that even the AI will refuse to work for.
Unfortunately, AI is still not intelligent enough for that... 
| | | | | AI-based bots are intelligent enough to trick us into thinking we deal with real people | Jul 1, 2022 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: Charles R. wrote:
We'll soon see rates that even the AI will refuse to work for. Unfortunately, AI is still not intelligent enough for that...
Watch this video to have a glimpse of what the future may hold in store for all of us: Three AIs compete to win on a reality show
A recent report found that 61.5% of internet traffic is generated by automated programs called bots. Some are sophisticated enough to infiltrate social networks and perhaps even influence public opinion.
If you don't design your own life plan, chances are you'll fall into someone else's plan. And guess what they have planned for you? Not much.
© Jim Rohn
Jim Rohn did not specifically refer to giant MLVs/LSPs, but ...
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