| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Off topic: Pronunciation that makes you cringe (inwardly) Thread poster: Cilian O'Tuama
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Metin Demirel 
Türkiye
Local time: 19:11
Member (2018)
Italian to Turkish
+ ...
| the French forte | Dec 16, 2022 |
Denis Fesik wrote:
Does the pronunciation "fortay" sound like some other word in Turkish? The original Italian is certainly a two-syllable word. I believe English started truncating the final -e in pronunciation as an evolutionary step that occurred well into the history of the language.
Actually I was not referring to the forte imported from Italian, but the one from French as in Tom's example of "Chess is not my forte". It doesn't sound like a word in Turkish. But the thing is I learned English on my own and mostly by reading in the first 5 years with no audio support. I was using a digital dictionary that didn't explain the pronunciation of words, so I didn't learn the correct pronunciation of many words for years. I have a habit of subvocalization (even in my native Turkish), so many words had been instilled in my brain with their wrong pronunciations. I pronounced "forte" as "fort" in my mind for years and interestingly I had ignorantly adopted the less known but correct version of it. Much later I incorporated audio-visual elements in my experience of learning the English language and I became aware of the mistakes I was making (luckily nobody was hearing). This word never comes up in a work-related environment and I don't live in an English speaking country. So I am spared of getting into an argument over which pronunciation is correct. I know it is not fortay but it's not my problem.
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Metin Demirel wrote: I know it is not for tay but it's not my problem.
But fortay really is the correct pronunciation!!!
| | | | expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 17:11
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Metin Demirel wrote:
Actually I was not referring to the forte imported from Italian, but the one from French as in Tom's example of "Chess is not my forte".
Sorry, Metin. It is not an imported word from Italian, but from Latin and I don't know about Romanian, but all Romance languages have their "forte" as a noun or an adjective (like in PT-PT).
| | | | Metin Demirel
Türkiye
Local time: 19:11
Member (2018)
Italian to Turkish
+ ...
| double-checked | Dec 16, 2022 |
expressisverbis wrote: Metin Demirel wrote:
Actually I was not referring to the forte imported from Italian, but the one from French as in Tom's example of "Chess is not my forte". Sorry, Metin. It is not an imported word from Italian, but from Latin and I don't know about Romanian, but all Romance languages have their "forte" as a noun or an adjective (like in PT-PT).
I just checked etymonline.com to make sure we are talking about the same "forte". Here's what it says:
forte (n.)
1640s, fort, from French fort "strong point (of a sword blade)," earlier "fort, fortress" (see fort). Meaning "strong point of a person, that in which one excels," is from 1680s. Final -e- added 18c. in imitation of Italian forte "strong."
forte (adj.)
music instruction, "loud, loudly," from Italian forte, literally "strong," from Latin fortis "strong" (see fort). Opposed to piano.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/forte#etymonline_v_11823
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expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 17:11
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Metin Demirel wrote: expressisverbis wrote: Metin Demirel wrote:
Actually I was not referring to the forte imported from Italian, but the one from French as in Tom's example of "Chess is not my forte". Sorry, Metin. It is not an imported word from Italian, but from Latin and I don't know about Romanian, but all Romance languages have their "forte" as a noun or an adjective (like in PT-PT). I just checked etymonline.com to make sure we are talking about the same "forte". Here's what it says: forte (n.) 1640s, fort, from French fort "strong point (of a sword blade)," earlier "fort, fortress" (see fort). Meaning "strong point of a person, that in which one excels," is from 1680s. Final -e- added 18c. in imitation of Italian forte "strong." forte (adj.) music instruction, "loud, loudly," from Italian forte, literally "strong," from Latin fortis "strong" (see fort). Opposed to piano. https://www.etymonline.com/word/forte#etymonline_v_11823
Yes, we are talking about the same "forte", and European Portuguese includes all those meanings.
O Forte Qait Bey foi construído em 1477. (Qait Bey Fort was built in 1477.)
O português é o meu forte. (Portuguese is my forte.)
Estudei forte e feio para os exames. (I studied very hard for my exams.)
4. MÚSICA designativo do som acentuado (MUSIC means a strong sound)
https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/forte
[Edited at 2022-12-16 21:25 GMT]
| | | | | Much worse... | Dec 18, 2022 |
Kay Denney wrote: Ice Scream wrote:
Swedes tend to pronounce my first name Chris as Crease, which is disturbingly close to both the English word Grease and the Swedish word Gris which means Pig. Am I allowed to cringe (inwardly or outwardly) at that pronunciation without being an ignorant racist bigot? The first time I had to pick up a residence permit in France, I was waiting until closing time, because I didn't recognise my name as pronounced by the French woman calling me for my appointment.
Shortly after I moved to Belgium, I had to shorten my surname Borges de Almeida, because being too long no Belgian could say it more or less correctly. So, I shortened it first to Almeida “tout court” until I received a letter addressed to Mme Alpeida (it sounds like the buttocks region in Portuguese). From then on, I became Mme Borgès (strong accent on the second syllable).
| | | | expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 17:11
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
My second (birth) name was pronounced by a nice hotel receptionist in Cairo in a funny way.
Instead of "Flor", I was called "Miss Flour".
On the other hand, the name of one of the PMs was "Hany" and I spent all the time calling him "Honey", which was a bit embarassing.
P.S.: I forgot to add, they asked me the meaning of "Flor" in English, and after that I was baptized: Miss Zahara
[Edited at 2022-... See more My second (birth) name was pronounced by a nice hotel receptionist in Cairo in a funny way.
Instead of "Flor", I was called "Miss Flour".
On the other hand, the name of one of the PMs was "Hany" and I spent all the time calling him "Honey", which was a bit embarassing.
P.S.: I forgot to add, they asked me the meaning of "Flor" in English, and after that I was baptized: Miss Zahara
[Edited at 2022-12-18 15:59 GMT]
[Edited at 2022-12-18 15:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Metin Demirel
Türkiye
Local time: 19:11
Member (2018)
Italian to Turkish
+ ...
expressisverbis wrote: Yes, we are talking about the same "forte", and European Portuguese includes all those meanings. O Forte Qait Bey foi construído em 1477. (Qait Bey Fort was built in 1477.) O português é o meu forte. (Portuguese is my forte.) Estudei forte e feio para os exames. (I studied very hard for my exams.) 4. MÚSICA designativo do som acentuado (MUSIC means a strong sound) https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/forte
Thank you for the insightful examples. Yet I still cannot get off my mind the direct French to English borrowing of the word "fort", which later came to be spelled "forte" (and pronounced fortay). If the English speakers borrowed the French word "fort", as in "strong suit", why did its English pronunciation change to fortay while the French still use the same word with the same spelling (c'est pas mon fort)?
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:11
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Ice Scream wrote: Metin Demirel wrote: I know it is not for tay but it's not my problem. But fortay really is the correct pronunciation!!!
fòrte
| | | | Metin Demirel
Türkiye
Local time: 19:11
Member (2018)
Italian to Turkish
+ ...
| not my strong suit | Dec 19, 2022 |
Ice Scream wrote: Metin Demirel wrote: I know it is not for tay but it's not my problem. But fortay really is the correct pronunciation!!!
Insisting is not my strong suit, so I will avoid using the word "forte" alongside its pronunciation that I believe is correct
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Baran Keki wrote:
I've been pondering about this question lately, and I'd welcome people's perspective on this:
Why is it that UK English, to all intents and purposes, seem to be the 'official' language of the European Union, given that they (Brits) have left the EU?
Let’s start by saying that even before the UK entered the EU in 1973 English was the lingua franca, though by then French was much more important than in the following years. After the UK left the EU in 2020, English is still an official language because Ireland has two official languages: English and Irish and I think Malta has also two official languages: Maltese and English...
[Edited at 2022-12-19 10:46 GMT]
| | | | | Help, Michele! | Dec 19, 2022 |
Metin Demirel wrote: Insisting is not my strong suit, so I will avoid using the word "forte" alongside its pronunciation that I believe is correct
Very good
Fortay might not make sense etymologically but it is how everyone in the UK pronounces it, so doesn't that make it the correct pronunciation? Nobody will understand you if you say fort.
I wouldn't insist on using omboodsman.
Calling the linguistics police to the forum, Michele!
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expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 17:11
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Sadek_A wrote:
For example, Arabic has a few characters that are a bit** to pronounce by non Arabic speakers, especially English speakers.
You’ve got to be kidding! (¡Qué fuerte!)
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 18:11
French to English
Metin Demirel wrote:
I still cannot get off my mind the direct French to English borrowing of the word "fort", which later came to be spelled "forte" (and pronounced fortay). If the English speakers borrowed the French word "fort", as in "strong suit", why did its English pronunciation change to fortay while the French still use the same word with the same spelling (c'est pas mon fort)?
I'd attribute it to total ignorance. Personally, I'd hasard a guess that the English thought it was Italian rather than French.
It's not the only imported word to have been mauled: porc became pork, cour became court, just to cite two words off the top of my head. Oh and just look at London: the Infanta's castle became Elephant and Castle, and St Mary's on the Bourne somehow morphed into Marylebone.
And unless this sort of thing happened to words, we'd all still be speaking Latin in Italy and Anglo-Saxon in England or goodness knows what proto-language.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:11
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Kay Denney wrote:
the Infanta's castle became Elephant and Castle
An unusually good piece in Wikipedia says
.....'Elephant and Castle" is a corruption of "La Infanta de Castilla" – allegedly a reference to a series of Spanish princesses such as Eleanor of Castile and María, the daughter of Philip III of Spain. However, Eleanor of Castile was not an infanta (the term only appeared in English about 1600). María has a strong British connection because she was once controversially engaged to Charles I, but she had no connection with Castile. "Infanta de Castilla" therefore seems to be a conflation of two Iberian royals separated by 300 years'
[Edited at 2022-12-20 12:32 GMT]
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