| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Off topic: 美国化、西方化、中国化? (Intercultural and Cross-cultural Experiences, etc.) Thread poster: pkchan
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pkchan 
United States
Local time: 12:31
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER | Western education booms in China | Nov 12, 2006 |
今早，打開波士頓環球報星期天版，有以下文章，很切這線，轉錄如後，文章稍長，可讀性高，說明了一些情況，特向大家推介。
Western education booms in China
Many elite schools set up campuses
By Jehangir S. Pocha, Globe Correspondent | November 12, 2006
BEIJING -- Winston S. Churchill might have cringed at the thought: His alma mater, the elite British school Harrow, has opened a branch in Beijing.
So f... See more 今早，打開波士頓環球報星期天版，有以下文章，很切這線，轉錄如後，文章稍長，可讀性高，說明了一些情況，特向大家推介。
Western education booms in China
Many elite schools set up campuses
By Jehangir S. Pocha, Globe Correspondent | November 12, 2006
BEIJING -- Winston S. Churchill might have cringed at the thought: His alma mater, the elite British school Harrow, has opened a branch in Beijing.
So far, more than 100 Western schools and universities have set up in China, and the number is expected to grow.
A team from Harvard University headed by William C. Kirby, director of the Fairbank Center for East Asian Research, was in China over the summer to evaluate how the university could establish a presence in China.
"It's an idea whose time has come," said Matthew Benjamin Farthing, headmaster of the newly opened Harrow International School in Beijing. "As the world is globalizing, it's only natural for education to globalize. Parents everywhere want the best education and while they once had to send their children to places like Harrow in the UK or US, schools like Harrow are now coming here."
While some of the educational institutions, including Harvard, are looking only to set up local centers where students from their home country can come to study China's dynamic economy and evolving society, others are seeking to enroll local students in degree or diploma programs.
"In our first year, we enrolled mostly expatriate children, both from Britain and countries familiar with the value of a Harrow education, but in two years I expect things will be different," Farthing said from his staid office as scores of students in Harrow's trademark ties milled around outside.
The prestige of such traditions and the reputation of schools such as Harrow are luring Chinese students and parents to international institutions.
"I think the reputation of where you study [shapes] your own reputation," said Peng Di, 21, who really wants to study at the Johns Hopkins University's Chinese campus in eastern Nanjing city.
But it's also the promise of being prepped for life in a Westernized world and studying in an environment that emphasizes all-round development and not academics alone, as Chinese schools tend to do, that attracts locals.
Getting admission to top Chinese schools is exceedingly competitive, and the schools' orientation is heavily academic. So parents with means looking to turn their children into global citizens look favorably at schools such as Harrow, which teach in English and take a wider approach to education.
"Here we don't just study but do a lot of activities to develop our interests and prepare us for life," said Chenchi Wang, 15, a 10th-grader who left a local school to enroll at Harrow last year.
While Harrow's curriculum is based on the National Curriculum for England and Wales, its extracurricular activities include fencing, Chinese painting, yoga, a share trading club, an orchestra, jazz and blues bands, a choir, a magazine, cooking classes, and a journalism club. Earlier this year, students even staged a performance of "Carmina Burana," Carl Orff's choral and symphonic work.Continued...
The price tag for acquiring a education like this from one of the elite Western institutions in China is between $8,000 and $25,000 per year. Expatriates who send their children to these schools are mostly immune to sticker shock since it's mostly their employers that pick up the tab.
But even China's new upper middle-class isn't likely to be deterred by the bill.
Education is highly valued in China and despite the fact that the average American university or private school education costs more than a middle-class Chinese family can save in a generation, there are currently 63,000 Chinese students enrolled in universities in the United States, more than from any foreign country except India, which has 80,000 students in American schools, according to the New York-based Institute of International Education.
That number could be much higher but for the common practice of ensuring geographic balance in admissions, which ensures that Chinese students don't crowd out students from Europe, Latin America, and Africa.
With Chinese students facing steep challenges to study abroad, more and more of the foreign institutions creating campuses in China are hoping to woo locals by marketing their degrees as a Western-quality education in a Chinese setting -- at reduced prices. For example, a year at Harrow Beijing costs about $15,000, about half what it would cost in Britain.
But that approach is fraught with concerns over quality and the question of whether the experience of studying at a top institution can be replicated.
"There's more to studying at Stanford than the books and readings," said Jason Patent, director of the Stanford Program in Beijing, situated on the campus of prestigious Peking University. "That's why [our China program] is only designed to expose our US students to China, and not to offer a local degree."
Farthing acknowledges that expanding into Beijing has a "commercial aspect" and his one-year-old modernist concrete campus is trying hard to invoke the heritage of its 434-year-old cousin, whose halls in Britain's verdant Middlesex County were graced by such luminaries as the poet Lord Byron and India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru.
Pictures of "Harrow men" in their distinctive wide-brimmed straw hats and other quintessentially British scenes, such as cricket fields, lawn tennis, and river canoeing, frame the white-washed walls. As Farthing walks the halls, he uses an avuncular but firm tone as he reprimands students slouching or talking loudly.
"What we offer is a certain ethos, a certain approach to education that is valuable," he said. "Parents can discern that, and I like to believe we are also performing a service to countries like China by raising the standards of education here."
© Copyright 2006 Globe Newspaper Company. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 00:31
English to Chinese
+ ...
pkchan wrote:
今早，打開波士頓環球報星期天版，有以下文章，很切這線，轉錄如後，文章稍長，可讀性高，說明了一些情況，特向大家推介。
這篇文章有意思。教育國際化目前確實很IN，我在北京的親戚正在搞的就是這個，這回在北京才發現的。
| | | | pkchan
United States
Local time: 12:31
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Wenjer Leuschel wrote: pkchan wrote:
今早，打開波士頓環球報星期天版，有以下文章，很切這線，轉錄如後，文章稍長，可讀性高，說明了一些情況，特向大家推介。 這篇文章有意思。教育國際化目前確實很IN，我在北京的親戚正在搞的就是這個，這回在北京才發現的。 [1quote]  http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:7gIg0m9HWlv4zM:http://www.nanfangdaily.com.cn/southnews/tp/jrtj/200603310582_101297.jpg">[1quote]
早幾年前，有朋友動員老陳，回東莞搞一間專為台商而設的美式國際學校，當時15、16，心想老霍（剛故，香港名人，政協副主席）也鬥不過地頭蛇，書生一名，又何德何能呢。看來這朋友應是發了大達，因為再沒有找過老陳了。http://www.td-school.org.cn/
[Edited at 2006-11-12 17:28]
[Edited at 2006-11-12 17:29]
[Edited at 2006-11-12 17:30]
[Edited at 2006-11-12 17:33]
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 09:31
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| 话说面子 (Speaking of the face theory and culture) | Nov 12, 2006 |
Face, the facade of a person and the outer appearance that your counter-part can see first, directly or indirectly, in an interpersonal communication, has been well developed into a theory and culture in China and many Asian countries. I do not know if all those things are originated from the Chinese people, but it is for sure that the Chinese people should be credited to many of such inventions and applications.
Amazingly, some of the face theories made good sense to the Westerner... See more Face, the facade of a person and the outer appearance that your counter-part can see first, directly or indirectly, in an interpersonal communication, has been well developed into a theory and culture in China and many Asian countries. I do not know if all those things are originated from the Chinese people, but it is for sure that the Chinese people should be credited to many of such inventions and applications.
Amazingly, some of the face theories made good sense to the Westerners. I often heard from my American friends or colleagues using the expressions such as “saving face” or “losing face”. I also read an interesting research paper by Sarah Rosenberg ( http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/face/ ) discussing about the face theory from a westerner’s perspective and observation.
Recently, I noticed the face theory or culture was mentioned repeatedly in our peers’ posts in other threads in the Chinese Forum. I am very interested in this subject and think it would be a perfect discussion for us under this thread that is focused on "Intercultural and cross-cultural experiences."
Honestly, I think the Westerns might have only been exposed to a superficial layer of such culture. To make my point, I would like to list out the Chinese expressions that have to do with face, which in Chinese is “面子” , which literally can be translated as “face”, “cover”, “outer appearance”. To make this discussion more fun, I would like to ask you to contribute more of them, because I quite possibly missed some of them. I also challenge you to give an example of each expression and illustrate the meaning with an application. It would be better if you can write with an English translation, so our non-Chinese readers can understand our discussion. Remember, our discussion is not just helping us define our face theory and culture, but also give an opportunity to our non-Chinese readers to learn about our culture. This will make us the bridge-builders in real sense.
Here is the list of the face expressions I can think of. There is no particular order and please add on if I missed any, and give your translation and examples of each expression:
1. 爱面子
2. 驳面子
3. 拆面子
4. 丢面子
5. 放面子
6. 毁面子
7. 给面子
8. 给足面子
9. 借面子
10. 面子上过不去
11. 没面子
12. 磨不开面子
13. 死要面子
14. 撕面子
15. 要面子
16. 赢回面子
17. 有面子
18. 争面子
Kevin
[修改时间: 2006-11-12 20:41] ▲ Collapse
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 11:31
Chinese to English
+ ...
TongliUSA wrote:
...
Here is the list of the face expressions I can think of. There is no particular order and please add on if I missed any, and give your translation and examples of each expression:
1. 爱面子
2. 驳面子
3. 拆面子
4. 丢面子
5. 放面子
6. 毁面子
7. 给面子
8. 给足面子
9. 借面子
10. 面子上过不去
11. 没面子
12. 磨不开面子
13. 死要面子
14. 撕面子
15. 要面子
16. 赢回面子
17. 有面子
18. 争面子
Kevin,
Here are a few more off the top of my head:
好(hao4)面子
添面子
摆摆面子
真来面子
伤了面子
坏了面子
破面子
讲究面子
不讲面子
豁出面子
管什么面子不面子
夺了面子
别输了面子
看在您的面子上
大煞面子
捧捧面子
薄了面子
留点儿面子
拉不开面子
拉不下面子
撇开面子
照顾面子
补补面子
不要贪面子
碍于面子
我可担不起这个面子
保面子
重(zhong4)面子
赏个面子
硬撑着面子
讨个面子
花钱买个面子
托个面子
顾面子
面子上难看
面子上好光彩
还你个面子
砸了面子
面子往哪儿搁?
面子上差不多就行了
面子真大
一点小小的面子
Okay, I think I did my value add
[Edited at 2006-11-13 01:44]
[Edited at 2006-11-13 15:13]
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 09:31
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| We can make the first "Face Dictionary (面子字典)" with our group effort. | Nov 12, 2006 |
TongliUSA wrote:
1. 爱面子
2. 驳面子
3. 拆面子
4. 丢面子
5. 放面子
6. 毁面子
7. 给面子
8. 给足面子
9. 借面子
10. 面子上过不去
11. 没面子
12. 磨不开面子
13. 死要面子
14. 撕面子
15. 要面子
16. 赢回面子
17. 有面子
18. 争面子
wherestip wrote:
Here are a few more off the top of my head:
好(hou4)面子
添面子
摆摆面子
真来面子
伤了面子
坏了面子
破面子
讲面子
不讲面子
豁出面子
管什么面子不面子
夺了面子
别输了面子
看在您的面子上
大煞面子
捧捧面子
薄了面子
留点儿面子
拉不开面子
撇开面子
照顾面子
补补面子
不要贪面子
...
Steve,
This is great! Thank you for the contribution! I think we can make the first "Face Dictionary (面子字典)" with our group effort here at the Chinese Forum. Now, you got the first part done, please make another effort and complete the 2nd part (translation) and 3rd part (usage/example).
Kevin
[修改时间: 2006-11-12 22:16]
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 09:31
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Thank you for your detailed explanations. | Nov 12, 2006 |
pkchan wrote:
香港文化講座﹕第一講 -從『光棍』說起
主持人﹕pkchan
聽眾﹕成人或有家長陪同
講解﹕文字，不附圖片
家課﹕多看港產片
KEVIN大哥﹕請留心，不要四處望女仔
光棍=無皮柴=一枝公=寡老一名=孤家寡人=未婚單身男人
4條=鋤大D都幾大，但不夠同花順大，不是麻將，有點不文，不能說得太清楚，小女孩不宜
觀音=女神，兵=勤務員 觀音兵=為著追女仔，甘願做女人奴隸
Angus Woo wrote: 版主大人, 沒有樹皮的木柴就是光棍, 沒有皮了嘛, 當然是光身的. “光棍遇著無皮柴"就是光棍遇到光棍, 也就是11啦. 其它的PK前輩已經解釋得很清楚啦, 就不重複了. 白話有不少用語, 比較粗俗, 但大都想一想就可以明白其中的意思. 舉個例子, "扭紋柴"同樣說的是木柴, 可意思就不一樣了, 版主猜猜是說什麼?
Hello, PK and Angus
Thank you for your detailed explanations. Very helpful! With the coaching of two Cantonese experts, my Cantonese is surely making progress here. Personally, I think the expression or image of “bare stick” or “barkless stick” seems to be too painful and sad for me. I think I am a contendo bachelor, to certain extent, perhaps it is better described by the words such as age-horned, narcissistically-saturated and intricately-carved sandalwood stick. There, I said all the nice things I could think of about myself and other bachelors out there.
Dojie!
Kevin
[修改时间: 2006-11-12 22:48]
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 11:31
Chinese to English
+ ...
TongliUSA wrote: Now, you got the first part done, please make another effort and complete the 2nd part (translation) and 3rd part (usage/example). Kevin
Well, that's a lot tougher. The thing is many of them translate to roughly the same thing because the equivalent English words are bound to run out.
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David Shen
United States
Local time: 09:31
English to Chinese
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| A good one, but I don't want to scare my boys out of their Chinese class! | Nov 13, 2006 |
I gave up without trying to look further the minute I saw Steve's daunting list of faces. Instead, I started to look elsewhere, like the opposite side which should be "里子“ or "骨子里".
Being a chubby boy, I still remember the day when I learned the word "脸皮" the hard way. A skinny "富农婆" was denounced at a "struggle meeting" by the Red Guards who accused her of being "脸皮怎么这么厚?" and another added "足足有三寸厚!"
Still perplexed upo... See more I gave up without trying to look further the minute I saw Steve's daunting list of faces. Instead, I started to look elsewhere, like the opposite side which should be "里子“ or "骨子里".
Being a chubby boy, I still remember the day when I learned the word "脸皮" the hard way. A skinny "富农婆" was denounced at a "struggle meeting" by the Red Guards who accused her of being "脸皮怎么这么厚?" and another added "足足有三寸厚!"
Still perplexed upon return to the classroom, I gauged the flank of my face by putting the index finger into my mouth, held it steady as I pulled it out to measure the distance between the wet index finger and the thumb against my little plastic ruler, and I got 2.5cm. When my 3rd grade teacher asked the class:"any questions?" I raised my hand and asked her: "Is it a bad thing to havd a thick face? Mine is not 3 yet but how can I keep it thin?" She bursted into laughter and the whole "忆苦思甜" class had a moment of happy tears!
For that, I was ashamed and ridiculed for a whole year by the entire school!
My boys are trying to learn Chinese now, you think they would have a better chance if I tell them a face is just a face, or give them half of the list here?
TongliUSA wrote: TongliUSA wrote:
1. 爱面子
2. 驳面子
3. 拆面子
4. 丢面子
5. 放面子
6. 毁面子
7. 给面子
8. 给足面子
9. 借面子
10. 面子上过不去
11. 没面子
12. 磨不开面子
13. 死要面子
14. 撕面子
15. 要面子
16. 赢回面子
17. 有面子
18. 争面子
wherestip wrote:
Here are a few more off the top of my head:
好(hou4)面子
添面子
摆摆面子
真来面子
伤了面子
坏了面子
破面子
讲面子
不讲面子
豁出面子
管什么面子不面子
夺了面子
别输了面子
看在您的面子上
大煞面子
捧捧面子
薄了面子
留点儿面子
拉不开面子
撇开面子
照顾面子
补补面子
不要贪面子
...
Steve, This is great! Thank you for the contribution! I think we can make the first "Face Dictionary (面子字典)" with our group effort here at the Chinese Forum. Now, you got the first part done, please make another effort and complete the 2nd part (translation) and 3rd part (usage/example). Kevin [修改时间: 2006-11-12 22:16]
[Edited at 2006-11-13 08:21] ▲ Collapse
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 11:31
Chinese to English
+ ...
David Shen wrote:
I gave up without trying to look further the minute I saw Steve's daunting list of faces.
David,
I didn't know that I knew so much about "面子" myself! I set out to add a few usages I could think of to Kevin's list, but they just kept popping into my head
Actually in real life I'm not at all hung up on superficial appearances dealing with other people. That said, propriety and normal social behavior of course need to be observed in all circumstances.
That was a funny story about your childhood pranks. Those sure were the golden days of innocence.
| | | | pkchan
United States
Local time: 12:31
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | 『面子』，『面』與『臉』 | Nov 13, 2006 |
wherestip wrote: David Shen wrote:
I gave up without trying to look further the minute I saw Steve's daunting list of faces.
David, I didn't know that I knew so much about "面子" myself! I set out to add a few usages I could think of to Kevin's list, but they just kept popping into my head Actually in real life I'm not at all hung up on superficial appearances dealing with other people. That said, propriety and normal social behavior of course need to be observed in all circumstances. That was a funny story about your childhood pranks. Those sure were the golden days of innocence.
香港文化講座﹕第2講 -『面』
主持人﹕pkchan
聽眾﹕一般
講解﹕文字，不附圖片
家課﹕『面是人家俾，架是自己丟』， 請改成普通話
請留心
把一部份『面子』去『子』便是廣東話。但是，在普通話『面』與『臉』是否可以互代，如（死）不要臉，（真）丟臉，另外，打腫臉兒充胖子是否同屬這個類。
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 09:31
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| “Mianzi” or “mianzi” should be introduced AS IS into English without any translation. | Nov 13, 2006 |
Hi, David and Steve
That was a cute story. I could not imagine you once were a chubby boy. I think we had better hold off the 里子 discussion till we have something accomplished here with the 面子 discussion.
Steve was right. It is very challenging to translate these Chinese expressions. It requires explanation in translation in order to make sense to the English readers. I was trying to translate som... See more Hi, David and Steve
That was a cute story. I could not imagine you once were a chubby boy. I think we had better hold off the 里子 discussion till we have something accomplished here with the 面子 discussion.
Steve was right. It is very challenging to translate these Chinese expressions. It requires explanation in translation in order to make sense to the English readers. I was trying to translate some of the Chinese expressions we listed above and realized that the face matter is so hard to translate in different cases. I am afraid that the English readers might get confused with the actual face. I strongly suggest introducing the Chinese words “Mianzi” or “mianzi” AS IS into English without any translation.
For example, 爱面子 is “to care about the superficial face matters”, but it seems “to care about mianzi” would work better; 给足面子 is “to give sufficient opportunities to save face”, but it seems “to give sufficient mianzi” would work better. 借面子 is “to borrow someone’s connection or offer to serve one’s own needs”, but it seems “to borrow mianzi” would work better.
Kevin ▲ Collapse
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Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 00:31
English to Chinese
+ ...
pkchan wrote:
香港文化講座﹕第2講 -『面』
主持人﹕pkchan
聽眾﹕一般
講解﹕文字，不附圖片
家課﹕『面是人家俾，架是自己丟』， 請改成普通話
請留心
把一部份『面子』去『子』便是廣東話。但是，在普通話『面』與『臉』是否可以互代，如（死）不要臉，（真）丟臉，另外，打腫臉兒充胖子是否同屬這個類。
普通話：
真是。一般都是別人做面子給當事者，如果當事者搞砸了，丟臉當然是自己丟的。不過，丟臉的人往往明知自己丟了臉，還是死要面子，甚至把自己的丟臉當做是在給別人面子。這種情況我遇見過幾次，真是令人啼笑皆非。
仔細想，『面是人家俾，架是自己丟』， 比較精確一點的普通話翻譯應該是：面子是人家給的，台是自己拆的。
[Edited at 2006-11-13 19:21]
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 00:31
English to Chinese
+ ...
TongliUSA wrote:
"Mianzi" or "mianzi" should be introduced AS IS into English without any translation.
以前我聽說過 "關係" 也是應該稱做 "Guanxi"，因為這個詞怎麼翻譯都不恰當，可是後來我在德國聽到 "Vitamin B" 的說法，先是一愣，後是哈哈大笑－－這不就是 "Guanxi" 嗎？！
"Vitamin B" 所指的是 "Vitamin Beziehung"，直譯英文是 "vitamin relation"，單單 "relation" 的意思和中文的 "關係" 的意思有點差距，但若是 "vitamin relation" 那就很明顯是中文的 "關係" 了。
單單 "face" 說不出 "面子" 的意義，但也許在英文裡還真是有相當於 "面子" 的語詞，只是還沒被找到而已。
佛家說的 "威儀欲" 其實就是面子，這是每個人都有的慾望，可以說是與生俱來的。
分析 PK 提的『面是人家俾，架是自己丟』， 用現代漢語普通話來說，人都希望別人尊重，但有人不珍惜別人的尊重，硬是要拆自己的台，那就真的丟臉、丟面子了；我覺得所謂的 "面子"，應該就是受到尊重的滿足感，也就是威儀慾的滿足。
不知道英文怎麼翻譯 "威儀慾" 的？如果能查到佛經的英文翻譯，遇到需要翻譯 "面子" 時就用那個譯詞，大概八九不離十吧？
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 09:31
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I think "face" and "mianzi" are different. | Nov 13, 2006 |
Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
單單 "face" 說不出 "面子" 的意義，但也許在英文裡還真是有相當於 "面子" 的語詞，只是還沒被找到而已。
佛家說的 "威儀欲" 其實就是面子，這是每個人都有的慾望，可以說是與生俱來的。
Hi, Wenjer and all
Please feel free to use Chinese to post your message. I used English because I want the non-English readers to follow this discussion.
To think more about it, I think "face" and "mianzi" are different. Face is mostly referring to the front section of the head, particularly the two cheeks, and everything is tangible whereas “mianzi” includes the face, cheeks and beyond. It is more about the outer appearance that associated with guanxi, connections, feelings, social status, authority, even sonority, etc. and everything might be more abstract.
For example, 碍(于)面子. Here碍 or碍于 means “someone could not do something with the consideration of the involved mianzi factors.” Here the mianzi is talking about the important and influencing factors such as someone’s feeling, sonority, relationship to this person.
By the way, do the people in Taiwan also use the mianzi-related expressions Steve and I listed above? I wonder the face theory and culture works in Taiwan, too.
Kevin
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