泰戈尔《飞鸟集》一句诗句误译的分析和对翻译的启示

nigerose wrote:

我对诗歌文学造诣不深，但至少知道诗人文学家的语言技巧和思想深度都超乎常人，如果他们的经典句子能按常规理解，那就不叫经典了。

又例：
I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.

http://bible.cc/1_john/2-21.htm

和合本 约壹2:21我写信给你们，不是因你们不知道真理，正是因你们知道，并且知道没有虚谎是从真理出来的。
KJV 英 约壹2:21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. NIV 英 约壹2:21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
吕振中 约壹2:21我刚写信给你们，不是因为你们不明白『真实』，乃是因为你们明白，并且知道一切虚谎都不出于『真实』。
新译本 约壹2:21我写信给你们，不是因为你们不明白真理，而是因为你们明白，又因为谎言绝不会出于真理的。
现代译 约壹2:21我写信给你们，不是因为你们不认识真理，而是因为你们都认识了，而且知道一切虚谎都不是出自真理的。
当代译 约壹2:21所以，我写信给你们不是因为你们不晓得真理，是因为你们不但晓得，并且知道真理里面是绝对没有谎言的。
思高本 约壹2:21 文理本 约壹2:21我书与尔、非因尔不识真理、乃因尔识之、且凡虚诳、非由于真理也、
http://bible.kuanye.net/new/z/1161.htm

ysun wrote:


In the above sentence, “Do” is an auxiliary verb used with “not” and another verb “seat” to form a negative expression. “Do not seat” is an integrated phrase used to form an imperative. Apparently, the word “not” is not used to modify “because”.

Zhoudan wrote:

想说明什么呢？
这句的语法很正常啊。

not ... because = ... not because

nigerose wrote:



语法是复杂的，诗人文学家是玩弄语法复杂性的高手。

nigerose wrote:



Zhoudan
这句怎么了 17:08

想说明什么呢？
这句的语法很正常啊。

not ... because = ... not because

Zhoudan wrote:

我是说你下面引的这句话“I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth” 不能说明你的这个观点：“
但至少知道诗人文学家的语言技巧和思想深度都超乎常人，如果他们的经典句子能按常规理解，那就不叫经典了。”

nigerose wrote:


我举例“I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth” ，是说明它的语法现象和“Do not seat your love upon a precipice because it is high”这句经典诗句是一样的，都涉及not...because的句型。

你说的很对，not ... because = ... not because。所以我想我并没有乱引用。

We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.

Phil Hand wrote:


所以呢，不断的分析该句话的语法解决不了问题。用常识去理解它，一下子就破解了：什么是高？悬崖很高。原译文是正确的：
不要为了追高而把爱情推到悬崖峭壁上。

nigerose wrote:




我前面没说明白。
我说"但至少知道诗人文学家的语言技巧和思想深度都超乎常人，如果他们的经典句子能按常规理解，那就不叫经典了。” 是针对泰戈尔的“Do not seat your love upon a precipice because it is high”这句经典诗句。

我举例“I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth” ，是说明它的语法现象和“Do not seat your love upon a precipice because it is high”这句经典诗句是一样的，都涉及not...because的句型。

你说的很对，not ... because = ... not because。所以我想我并没有乱引用。

当然，并不总是not ... because = ... not because，而是有时候not ... because = ... not because。需要结合上下文或者句子的逻辑关系来判断。


[修改时间: 2012-06-16 14:30 GMT]

Phil Hand wrote:

For goodness sake. This argument cannot be resolved through grammar. Grammar is chronically underspecified - I can see at least three types of grammatical ambiguity and at least four types of lexical ambiguity in here.

Gram 1) seat 的宾语
Do not seat (your love) upon a precipice because it is high.
Do not seat (your love upon a precipice) because it is high.

Gram 2) not 的辖域
Do not (seat your love upon a precipice because it is high.)
Do not (seat your love upon a precipice) because it is high.

Gram 3) because 的辖域
(Do not seat your love upon a precipice) because it is high.
Do not (seat your love upon a precipice) because it is high.

Lex 1) seat: 摆放 还是 使入座

Lex 2) love: 爱情 还是 情人

Lex 3) it: love 还是 precipice 还是 其他

Lex 4) high: 高 还是 醉 还是 被刺激

12个单词可以形成很多不同的符合语法规则的含义。比如说：

【日出时，悬崖上的情人站立。】不要因为它（太阳）升高了而让你的悬崖上的情人坐下。

虽然上述的解读完全符合英文的语法规则，但我们可以确定，没有人会这么理解这句话，因为有更加符合常理的解读。从语用学的角度来看，这么稀奇的解读是不可能的。（Grice）

所以呢，不断的分析该句话的语法解决不了问题。用常识去理解它，一下子就破解了：什么是高？悬崖很高。原译文是正确的：
不要为了追高而把爱情推到悬崖峭壁上。

nigerose wrote:


嗯。这就对了，语法不确定性，也就是语法复杂性。诗人文学家就喜欢玩弄这一点。
在翻译中，也要想得复杂些。
love还有情人的意思，这个我没有想到。可能泰戈尔的这句诗句不止一种解释，这也是语法不确定性所达到的效果。