Off topic: She beat up her daughter because she was drunk. Thread poster: Jaspal Singh
| Jaspal Singh India Local time: 04:22 English to Punjabi + ...
Who was drunk in this sentence, mother or daughter? | | | Samuel Murray Netherlands Local time: 00:52 Member (2006) English to Afrikaans + ... Could be either | Sep 26, 2019 |
Jaspal Singh wrote: "She beat up her daughter because she was drunk." Who was drunk in this sentence, mother or daughter? It could be either. In the English language, you'd need more information. In "she threw a brick at the window, and it shattered" we can be fairly certain that the brick didn't shatter. But mothers and daughters can both do violent things to each other when sober or drunk. By the way, how do you know that the first "she" is the daughter's mother? You're assuming that the first "she" and "her" refers to the same person, but it doesn't have to be so, in type of sentence in English. (-: | | | Ambiguity: could be both | Sep 26, 2019 |
You need to gather the answer from the context, sometimes. In fact, when writing, it's recommended to avoid ambiguity. If you can ask the author of this text, you'd better do that. I hope it helps. | | | First I assumed the mother, but immediately began to wonder | Sep 26, 2019 |
Just seeing the heading of your thread without the discussion certainly made me wonder. My first thought was that the mother was drunk, and therefore out of control, so she beat up her daughter. Then I wondered - it was equally possible that the daughter was drunk, and the mother was just angry. Strictly, Samuel is right, and you cannot assume it was her own daughter. I think most people would, however. If it was someone else's daughter, I would write 'she beat up... See more Just seeing the heading of your thread without the discussion certainly made me wonder. My first thought was that the mother was drunk, and therefore out of control, so she beat up her daughter. Then I wondered - it was equally possible that the daughter was drunk, and the mother was just angry. Strictly, Samuel is right, and you cannot assume it was her own daughter. I think most people would, however. If it was someone else's daughter, I would write 'she beat up the daughter...' or rephrase it one way or another. Possibly I would call her 'the girl' or 'the younger woman', if the mother was also present in the scene, and another woman was doing the beating. Or technically it might be her father… Context, more context is needed!!! In my source language, assuming it was written correctly, the reflexive pronoun would be used for the woman's own daughter, and a different possessive pronoun for a third person's daughter. Many speakers have trouble deciding which to use, so it would not be entirely reliable, but it helps. The reflexive pronoun is gender neutral, i.e. the same for both genders, but the simple possessive is not - as with English his and her... Hun tævede sin datter = She beat her (own) daughter. Han tævede sin datter = He beat his (own) daughter. Hun tævede hendes datter = She beat another woman's daughter. Hun tævede hans datter = She beat a/the man's daughter. Happy translating!
[Edited at 2019-09-26 15:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse | |
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"She beat up her daughter because she was drunk." - In my understanding of the English language, both instances of "she" regard to the same person that is the mother. If you write "She beat up her daughter because the latter was drunk." - This will indicate that it's the daughter who was drunk. HTH
[Zmieniono 2019-09-26 14:30 GMT] | | | The daughter | Sep 26, 2019 |
Just analyze the sentence: Beat up - who is beating up? - the mother - what is she beating up? - the daughter - why? - because she was drunk. Voilà!
[Edited at 2019-09-26 15:15 GMT] | | | English is not that simple :-D | Sep 26, 2019 |
Robert Rietvelt wrote: Just analyze the sentence: Beat up - who is beating up? - the mother - what is she beating up? - the daughter - why? - because she was drunk. What is the problem here? Which of them was drunk? Don´t accept everything you may read in grammar books - most speakers and writers of English have never read them! English as she is spoke just ain´t like that! | | | It's ambiguous | Sep 27, 2019 |
If this were in a real translation situation, especially one where the law might become involved, you would want to ask the client for more information. Sometimes context might help. "Daughter was starting to booze heavily with her friends. Mother got fed up. She beat up her daughter .... " etc. would be context. But heck, they could both be drunk! You would want to write a footnote / alert the client in regard to the ambiguity. In regard to grammar rules - last person mention... See more If this were in a real translation situation, especially one where the law might become involved, you would want to ask the client for more information. Sometimes context might help. "Daughter was starting to booze heavily with her friends. Mother got fed up. She beat up her daughter .... " etc. would be context. But heck, they could both be drunk! You would want to write a footnote / alert the client in regard to the ambiguity. In regard to grammar rules - last person mentioned is the person being referred to - unfortunately people whose texts we translated are not necessarily sticklers of grammar, and are not always clear writers. ▲ Collapse | |
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it does not matter who - I think I can translate it with the same degree of | Sep 27, 2019 |
ambiguity into my language | | | Daryo United Kingdom Local time: 23:52 Serbian to English + ... Read the whole paragraph / section / document? | Sep 27, 2019 |
from just that one sentence alone you can't be sure. Even trying to figure out what's more probable won't work. But you could draw reasonable conclusions from what happened before, and especially from what happened after - any mention in the following text of who ended up in the hospital?
[Edited at 2019-09-27 14:10 GMT] | | | Adieu Ukrainian to English + ...
The drunk party may or may not be the beating party. The drunk party may be the mother, the daughter, or a third female party. The beating party may be the mother or a third woman. Ex1: Drunk female stranger beat up the sober daughter (because stranger was drunk and disorderly) Ex2: Sober policewoman beat up the drunk daughter (for drinking)
[Edited at 2021-01-07 06:27 GMT]
[Edited at 2021-01-07 06:32 GMT] | | | Jo Macdonald Spain Local time: 00:52 Italian to English + ... Gran picks fight with mum, granddaughter jumps in, ends up in a free for all. | Jan 7, 2021 |
Who was drunk? All of em of course. | |
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MollyRose United States Local time: 17:52 English to Spanish + ... to be unambiguous | Jan 8, 2021 |
She beat up her daughter in a drunken rage. She beat up her daughter because the latter was drunk. If she beat up her daughter BECAUSE she (the mother) was drunk, and we analyze the statement a bit, the mother could have been angry because she (the mother) was drunk and took it out on her daughter. Another ambiguity! Unfortunately, not everyone writes so clearly, much less speaks like that. But usually the context should make it clear what is meant. | | | Mervyn Henderson (X) Spain Local time: 00:52 Spanish to English + ...
Jaspal, most people have already answered you logically. What I would beg is some context. Where does this come from, if anywhere, and why do you want to know? Is it specific? Or could it also have been 'He beat up his son because he was drunk'? I won't go into statistics, but hey. Again, is it specific? Because it could have been 'She gave her daughter money because she wanted cabbage for lunch.' Is the beating up crucial here? Is there some message you want to convey? If you do, j... See more Jaspal, most people have already answered you logically. What I would beg is some context. Where does this come from, if anywhere, and why do you want to know? Is it specific? Or could it also have been 'He beat up his son because he was drunk'? I won't go into statistics, but hey. Again, is it specific? Because it could have been 'She gave her daughter money because she wanted cabbage for lunch.' Is the beating up crucial here? Is there some message you want to convey? If you do, just say it. Edit: I now see the original post is from well over a year ago. But you could still tell us.
[Edited at 2021-01-08 10:35 GMT] ▲ Collapse | | | Yaotl Altan Mexico Local time: 16:52 Member (2006) English to Spanish + ... Even in Spanish | Jan 11, 2021 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Jaspal Singh wrote: "She beat up her daughter because she was drunk." Who was drunk in this sentence, mother or daughter? It could be either. In the English language, you'd need more information. In "she threw a brick at the window, and it shattered" we can be fairly certain that the brick didn't shatter. But mothers and daughters can both do violent things to each other when sober or drunk. By the way, how do you know that the first "she" is the daughter's mother? You're assuming that the first "she" and "her" refers to the same person, but it doesn't have to be so, in type of sentence in English. (-: Even in Spanish it wouldn't be clear: "Golpeó a su hija porque llegó ebria". We don't know who drank.
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