| Páginas no tópico: < [1 2] | Reflexive pronouns Tópico cartaz: XXXphxxx (X)
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Ty Kendall 
Reino Unido
Local time: 04:18
hebraico para inglês
| Wrong probably is wrong | Nov 11, 2011 |
Neil Coffey wrote: It *is* wrong, just plain wrong. Yes, language is allowed to evolve over time but this is rubbish. My guess is that the reflexive pronoun issue arises from a wish to sound more correct, more polite, more posh... which makes it even worse. This is kind of going over boring old ground, but... Just because we randomly decide to label, say, 'myself' as being a "reflexive" pronoun does not then give us some inherent right to expect the language to automatically follow suit and adjust itself to fall in line with our arbitrary label. Any perceived necessity for the language to behave in a particular way is purely an arbitrary preference or invention. You are free to decide to follow, or wish for others to decide to follow, that preference or invention. However, it only makes sense to say that a particular usage not falling in line with your preference is "wrong" *if* the speaker/author in question was actually trying to follow that preference.
Neil has a point, "wrong" is a subjective matter. Perhaps more accurate to say it is "aesthetically offensive" (to us)
Linguistically there's no reason why me/myself can't merge meanings or be interchangeable.
For those of us who do distinguish the difference in meaning (between "me" and "myself"), I guess what is more bothersome with this usage (please contact myself) is the glaringly blatent lack of logic (which makes it stick out like a sore thumb when it occurs).
| | | | Evans (X)
Local time: 04:18
espanhol para inglês
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Anyone else old enough to remember Joan Armatrading's 1980 album and song of this name? From back in the days when the differences of usage of these pronouns was more widely known.
| | | | Neil Coffey
Reino Unido
Local time: 04:18
francês para inglês
+ ...
Ty Kendall wrote:
Linguistically there's no reason why me/myself can't merge meanings or be interchangeable. For those of us who do distinguish the difference in meaning (between "me" and "myself") /quote]
Incidentally, if the basis to the objection of e.g. "contact myself" is that the speaker is somehow making 'me' and 'myself' interchangeable or "not distinguishing" between them, I suspect that may not be the case. It seems to me more likely that the speaker is (intuitively) choosing to use 'myself' rather than 'me' precisely because they perceive a distinction that merits one rather than the other word in that case (e.g. 'myself' is more emphatic, or indicates 'exclusivity' or 'corporate responsibility'...)
Ty Kendall wrote:
I guess what is more bothersome with this usage (please contact myself) is the glaringly blatent lack of logic (which makes it stick out like a sore thumb when it occurs).
However, the notion of what constitutes "logic" is highly selective, and there's little reason to think that the "logic" of language necessarily follows what we perceive of as "logic" in e.g. mathematics. Purely on the basis of "logic", the are all sorts of utterances that we could argue that we would expect to be acceptable/grammatical but which aren't (and vice versa).
For example, on the basis of logic we might put forward arguments for why the sentence "Which platform was left by the train?" ought to be as acceptable as "Which bag was left by the guest?" (but if you poll some speakers, you'll probably find that's not the case).
So I wonder how objectively you would decide that "logic" is the prevailing factor in one case and not the other, and how you would resolve cases where two lines of "logic" conflict.
| | | | Rachel Fell
Reino Unido
Local time: 04:18
francês para inglês
+ ...
I hear it a lot too, often used by people who seem to think it sounds more correct or something, e.g. "The police officer interviewed myself and my daughter", or "Myself and my friend were going..."
As for "My friend and I", that sounds fine to me, but "Me and my friend" does too, in a colloquial context. I don't think I'll hear HRH saying "Me and my husband"
 - I hope I never hear her say "Myself and my husband"!
... See more I hear it a lot too, often used by people who seem to think it sounds more correct or something, e.g. "The police officer interviewed myself and my daughter", or "Myself and my friend were going..."
As for "My friend and I", that sounds fine to me, but "Me and my friend" does too, in a colloquial context. I don't think I'll hear HRH saying "Me and my husband"
- I hope I never hear her say "Myself and my husband"!
Woops, sorry! Well, I probably should've put ER, as I nearly did!
[Edited at 2011-11-11 15:57 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Jennifer White
Reino Unido
Local time: 04:18
francês para inglês
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Not HRH Rachel - Her Majesty = HM! Common error, seen all the time in the popular press.
Cheers.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Reino Unido
Local time: 04:18
hebraico para inglês
| Clarification | Nov 11, 2011 |
Neil Coffey wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
Linguistically there's no reason why me/myself can't merge meanings or be interchangeable. For those of us who do distinguish the difference in meaning (between "me" and "myself") /quote] Incidentally, if the basis to the objection of e.g. "contact myself" is that the speaker is somehow making 'me' and 'myself' interchangeable or "not distinguishing" between them, I suspect that may not be the case. It seems to me more likely that the speaker is (intuitively) choosing to use 'myself' rather than 'me' precisely because they perceive a distinction that merits one rather than the other word in that case (e.g. 'myself' is more emphatic, or indicates 'exclusivity' or 'corporate responsibility'...) Ty Kendall wrote:
I guess what is more bothersome with this usage (please contact myself) is the glaringly blatent lack of logic (which makes it stick out like a sore thumb when it occurs).
However, the notion of what constitutes "logic" is highly selective, and there's little reason to think that the "logic" of language necessarily follows what we perceive of as "logic" in e.g. mathematics. Purely on the basis of "logic", the are all sorts of utterances that we could argue that we would expect to be acceptable/grammatical but which aren't (and vice versa). For example, on the basis of logic we might put forward arguments for why the sentence "Which platform was left by the train?" ought to be as acceptable as "Which bag was left by the guest?" (but if you poll some speakers, you'll probably find that's not the case). So I wonder how objectively you would decide that "logic" is the prevailing factor in one case and not the other, and how you would resolve cases where two lines of "logic" conflict.
When I was talking about logic I was doing it with the presumption of
For those of us who do distinguish the difference in meaning
i.e. that anybody who thinks like me and Lisa will question the logic (it's reasonable to assume as we share similar views and will probably come to the same conclusion on the logic of this phrase).
Although I don't doubt others won't share this opinion, for both the usage or the logic.
I also suspect that many people are using "myself" as an emphatic pronoun in some of these cases.
[Edited at 2011-11-11 16:09 GMT]
| | | | | Disjunctive pronouns | Nov 11, 2011 |
I was gratified when I first learned of the existence of the disjunctive pronoun which is enshrined in French grammar:
C’est moi = It’s me
This certainly sounds more natural than “It is I”
Vive le pronom disjonctif anglais!
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Reino Unido
Local time: 04:18
português para inglês
+ ...
CRIADOR(A) DO TÓPICO | Yes I am old enough :) | Nov 11, 2011 |
Gilla Evans wrote:
Anyone else old enough to remember Joan Armatrading's 1980 album and song of this name? From back in the days when the differences of usage of these pronouns was more widely known.
Yes Gilla. Certainly do remember, jumped in a car up the A30/A303 mid-afternoon one day to schlepp up to Wembley Arena. Worth every minute of the schlepp. Came home virtually all the way at a crawl behind Cruise missiles. Remember THEM?
I digress... I've just been reminded of one of the best ones we've had: "Is there anything else I can do for yourselves today?" (to be read out loud in a shrill sing-song voice).
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Jack Doughty
Reino Unido
Local time: 04:18
russo para inglês
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In memoriam | Joan Armatrading? | Nov 11, 2011 |
I'm old enough to remember Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers singing "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off!" (You say tomayto, and I say tomahto, you say potayto, and I say potahto....)
| | | | Ty Kendall
Reino Unido
Local time: 04:18
hebraico para inglês
I told you I'd start hearing it everywhere now...
Was just watching a re-run of The Young Apprentice, one of the kids said something like:
"James, Myself and Zara went out to sell...."
Un-be-liev-able.
| | | | Neil Coffey
Reino Unido
Local time: 04:18
francês para inglês
+ ...
Andrew Swift wrote:
C’est moi = It’s me
Incidentally, the example of French sometimes gets bandied about as an argument for saying "it is me" rather than "it is I" in English (not that an argument is actually needed, of course).
However, the parallel isn't so simple, because cases such as "C'est moi", "Il y a moi" are actually a 'special' construction in French (as opposed to "*Ce m'est", "*Il m'y a", which is the construction you would have expected with most verbs, but which turns out not to be the construction used in these cases -- another interesting example actually of how arguing that an instance of language is "logical" doesn't really buy you very much).
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Reino Unido
Local time: 04:18
português para inglês
+ ...
CRIADOR(A) DO TÓPICO | You WILL now see it everywhere | Nov 12, 2011 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
I told you I'd start hearing it everywhere now...
Was just watching a re-run of The Young Apprentice, one of the kids said something like:
"James, Myself and Zara went out to sell...."
Un-be-liev-able.
Amazing how it just crept in there imperceptibly and it now litters the language.
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matt robinson
Espanha
Local time: 05:18
Membro (2010)
espanhol para inglês
| descriptive grammar v. prescriptive grammar | Nov 12, 2011 |
What is *right* is only a description of usage which even a superficial investigation into grammars over time will reveal itself to be in a constant state of evolution.
It is easy to fall into the trap of believing that at some point a particular grammar was *right* and that any subsequent changes in usage are mistakes. The next subjective grammar written will encompass the widely accepted changes, and so on ad infinitum.
The grammars written in Elizabethan England may have had wides... See more What is *right* is only a description of usage which even a superficial investigation into grammars over time will reveal itself to be in a constant state of evolution.
It is easy to fall into the trap of believing that at some point a particular grammar was *right* and that any subsequent changes in usage are mistakes. The next subjective grammar written will encompass the widely accepted changes, and so on ad infinitum.
The grammars written in Elizabethan England may have had widespread intellectual support, but none of your present clients would welcome a translation thus written. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Speaking of synonyms.... | Nov 14, 2011 |
Lisa Simpson wrote:
My son in Year 8 was the only one in a class of 30 to know what a synonym was..
"A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the other one."
(Baltasar Gracián)
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