| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | 如何厘清职业规避与个人交往的关系/界线？ Thread poster: lbone
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lbone 
China
Local time: 21:55
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
以前我没怎么在意过这个问题。
上周某一天工作之余，想起某个邮箱中不再出现的熟悉的名字，在谷歌上查了一下，结果让我心头有些沉重。
自由翻译在工作中涉及的人主要可以分为三种：自由翻译、翻译公司和客户。
自由翻译之间的关系比较随意，没有什么限制。如果不涉及公司，翻译与直接找上门来的个人客户或翻译公司个体户的交往也可�... See more 以前我没怎么在意过这个问题。
上周某一天工作之余，想起某个邮箱中不再出现的熟悉的名字，在谷歌上查了一下，结果让我心头有些沉重。
自由翻译在工作中涉及的人主要可以分为三种：自由翻译、翻译公司和客户。
自由翻译之间的关系比较随意，没有什么限制。如果不涉及公司，翻译与直接找上门来的个人客户或翻译公司个体户的交往也可以比较随意。这些都可以理解为个人交往。
不过一旦人际关系中的某人属于某家公司（翻译公司或客户公司），或者与某人的关系中间夹了一层作为中介的翻译公司，似乎情况就有些不同了。公司往往就会有一些规避性的要求，譬如很可能有如下一种或几种要求：
* 翻译不得绕开翻译公司直接和翻译公司找来的客户联系
* 公司员工离职后不得带走在公司任职期间交往的合作方，更严格的要求则是（若干年内）不得再与其联系
* 在职员工不得利用在本职工作中建立的关系绕开公司去寻求商业利益
自由翻译在与公司签订独立承包商协议时，往往会有这方面的约定。入职公司全职员工时估计也会被要求签订包含类似条款的协议。
对于这类要求，我以前的看法很简单，这些都是很合理的要求，应该去遵守；遵守这类要求是职业者应该有的职业操守。
但是经过一些事情后，我的看法渐渐有了动摇，开始觉得事情不是这么简单。
自由翻译和翻译公司之间的关系，看似是作为兼职雇员/独立承包商的翻译与作为公司的翻译公司之间的关系，但我渐渐发现，其实也分两种情况。一种是和PM关系不大，你只要“好好工作”，不管PM是谁，正常情况下你和翻译公司的关系都会健康地延续下去；这种公司的PM存在感不太强，有时你不太容易记住他们的名字。另一种情况，也许是更常见的情况，则是与你接洽的那个联系人的个性/亲和感/存在感比较明显，这家公司来找你的基本都是他/她，只是偶尔才有别人代劳一下。某种意义上，你和他/她可以算半个工作伙伴，也有了某种朋友的关系。如果哪一天他/她离开了，或不想找你了，你和这家公司也许很快就没什么关系了。这种情况下，其实认可你的并不是这家公司，而是这个人；而你与这家公司的关系，其实主要就是你与这个人的关系。
如果某一天，这个人离职了——主动辞职或因故被请走了——那你和这个一直合作很愉快的“伙伴”、“朋友”这时会是什么关系？这个问题。。。就好像《楚门的世界》或《异次元骇客》里的边缘区域，一片灰色与模糊，没有答案，甚至没什么人提起。。。仅仅思考这个问题，似乎就给人带来一种犯罪的不适感。
以前我没怎么在意过这个问题，不过因为Adriana，我现在已经很难说服自己不去想这个问题了。
Adriana就是我说的一个这样的PM。
我查了一下邮箱记录，2013年5月21日，我收到她通过ProZ消息系统发来的一封信：
Greetings from New Jersey
My eyes caught the musical scores... I love music! What do
you play?
Ok, about the business at hand: we would have a
semi-technical translation into Traditional Chinese... would
you be interested?
When I get the sample file, I'll send it to you.
I would need your rates and delivery times. Do you work in
Trados?
Thanks for reply
Adriana M...
我回信和她解释了一下我其实是个音乐的门外汉，我头像上的乐谱是达芬奇写的几首小曲子之一，出于对多才多艺的达芬奇大师的拜服，我把这段乐谱搬来当作我的头像。当然，业务上的问题也回复了。
她回复说她是个喜欢音乐的老奶奶，也介绍了她所在的公司和她自己，她当时似乎就是这家公司的主要联系人：
I am not a musician either, just a little amateur playing and improvising on the piano...
Ted, I must confess, I did not know that thinghie is called an "avatar" - oh well, I am and old lady (grandmother of 3 great kids) and do not know many modern expressions...
Yes, da Vinci was a real genius, in many fields and he did excel in many arts and sciences.
The other genius I admire is Michelangelo - he too was a master of fantastic arts (painting, sculpture, design and poetry too...)
Today is Wagner's 200'th birthday - another master of great music, pretty bad guy as a person, but genius nonetheless.
Ted, I find it very interesting and enlightening conversing with you.
...
A couple of words about our company. We are in the business for about 30 years...
I am in my position for over 17 years, and love every minute of it. I love working with the wonderful freelancers around the world, and in the US.
Excellent group of professionals - it is a pleasure working with you all and you all make my day.
我们就这样一边谈业务，一边也谈了一些off-topic的东西，开始了业务合作。
和Adriana的合作一直很愉快，她的公司以前一直在做某个领域的翻译业务，与我联系时，他们正在开拓新业务，需要我的技术翻译背景，我做的最多的是一些手表文档的翻译。有时北京下大雪，她会来信问我是不是很冷，说他们那儿也在下大雪，她早上不太想出门。。。春节的时候还给我发 Chinese New Year 的新年问候。
和Adriana做的最后一个项目是在2015年3月底。然后，5月初新项目来的时候，公司的联系人换成了一个陌生的名字C，有些要求和流程也变了。C告诉我，Adriana离开了这家公司。
C做事明显属于另一种风格，手表项目又做了两三次以后，我就再也没收到这家公司的联系了。
以前和一家英国公司的合作也差不多是这样，大约也合作了两年，后来他们换了一些新面孔。我问起原来的人呢？回复是原来与我接洽的那批人一大半都“离开了”那家公司。新人新风格新气象，很快就合作不下去了。
不再接英国公司的项目几个月之后，某一天邮箱里收到一封 LinkedIn 推荐加联系人的通知邮件，说有某位P先生，你想加他吗？我一看，是这家英国公司的一位那段时间离职的前PM，他在时，与他的合作一直很愉快。LinkedIn加人的通知似乎是自动匹配发送的，有时我发现 LinkedIn 向我推荐的联系人主要是给我写过邮件的某些人。我以前主要用gmail邮箱，这么多年来一直用的客户端是微软的，不知是否谷歌或微软把我的一些联系人或偏好卖给了LinkedIn，否则他们的加人推荐怎么总是那么吊人胃口？那么，要加他么？我犹豫了，最后长久以来职业操守的观念占了上风，我只是默默去看了看他的 LinkedIn 卡片，但没加他。
中国翻译公司的PM离职时，情况要好一些。他们有的离职前会先和我打一声招呼“我要离开这家公司了，很高兴认识你，再见！”，有的离职后还继续待在我的QQ上，偶尔可能问候一声。但我碰到的欧美公司联系人离职时则都是毫无声息地消失了，只有询问新人时，才知道他/她“离开这家公司了”。
上星期的某天，辛苦工作之余，我不知怎么想起了Adriana。在谷歌上搜索她的全名“Adriana Marton”，一条条看下来，她的 LinkedIn 卡片一如过去般简单，只写了她工作了那么多年的公司名和职务名，其他什么都没有，什么都没有变；再往下面的结果中，看到了 Legacy 和一家本地纪念网站上她的讣告，原来在2015年的7月，她离职后不久，就去世了，终年70岁。讣告很简单，看起来是两个儿子和各自的妻子以及她当初提到的三个孙辈发的：
Obituary of Adriana Marton
Adriana, 70, of Clifton passed away on July 2, 2015. Born in Budapest, Hungary, she came to the US in 1970 and lived in West New York before moving to Clifton 3 years ago. Adriana was a Manager for xxx in West Caldwell for many years.
Beloved mother of xxx and his wife xxx of Clifton, and xxx and his wife xxx of St. Louis. Loving grandmother of xxx, xxx and xxx.
这个结果是我没有想到的。
我在谷歌上搜了一圈，找到Adriana这些年来给好些翻译和翻译公司写的荐言，诚朴、亲和但又蕴含着热情，一如她当初写给我的那种文字，有的是她成为了翻译简历中的referee，有的是ProZ上的wwa推荐，有的则被她的合作翻译发在自己的公司网站首页上。另外，我还在一个翻译行业杂志上看到她关于菜单翻译的一些经验之谈。ProZ上的翻译给她的公司打过十来个blueboard反馈，全5分，其中2015年和之前的评价绝大多数都专门提到与adriana的合作非常愉快、舒心、一切满意。
Adriana在2015年“离开公司”，不久就去世了，至今已经快一年了。除了家人发的讣告，翻译行业中却没有见到任何人提到她、纪念她，为她送别。ProZ上没有，她工作了将近20年的公司网站上没有，其他地方似乎也没有。
这种前后的差异，让我感觉比较闷塞，但又不知道该说什么。这似乎是公司/职场人际规避原则带来的自然结果，这种结果看起来很不对劲，但究竟是哪儿不对，如何处理、应对才算对的呢？
希望能听听各位同事的想法。
[Edited at 2016-06-02 19:06 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Zhoudan
Local time: 21:55
English to Chinese
+ ...
我觉得更多的还是网上往来的性质造成的。几年前有位PM离开公司，写邮件告诉了我，邮件末尾说，不知道双方今后会不会有交集，挺伤感的。
规避主要是防止你越过翻译公司直接跟最终客户联系。在Linked之类的网站上跟PM连接，我觉得不存在规避问题。
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 08:55
Chinese to English
+ ...
Zhoudan wrote:
跟规避没有关系
我觉得更多的还是网上往来的性质造成的。几年前有位PM离开公司，写邮件告诉了我，邮件末尾说，不知道双方今后会不会有交集，挺伤感的。
规避主要是防止你越过翻译公司直接跟最终客户联系。在Linked之类的网站上跟PM连接，我觉得不存在规避问题。
I agree with Zhoudan. I think it has more to do with the U.S. being a highly mobile society where people constantly move from place to place.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160222144332.htm
In a highly mobile society like the United States, people who relocate for work, school or simply to "wipe the slate clean" tend to jettison replaceable objects when they move.
According to a new study from the University of Kansas appearing in the journal Personal Relationships, the mindset that objects are disposable extends to social ties.
"We found a correlation between the way you look at objects and perceive your relationships," said lead author Omri Gillath, associate professor of psychology. "If you move around a lot, you develop attitudes of disposability toward objects, furniture, books, devices -- basically whatever merchandise you have at home, your car even."
Not that it's a good thing, of course.
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 08:55
Chinese to English
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| On the bright side | Jun 3, 2016 |
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lbone
China
Local time: 21:55
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
我记得以前我发主贴有人回复我时，都有邮件通知的，现在不知怎么没有了。
Zhoudan wrote:
规避主要是防止你越过翻译公司直接跟最终客户联系。在Linked之类的网站上跟PM连接，我觉得不存在规避问题。
Adriana和你联系过吗？我记得有一次她找人翻译化妆品，我推荐她找你，但后来的事就不知道了。
你说的是自由翻译和翻译公司之间的规避，但PM，我估计翻译公司对他们也有要求的。
不过我听你这么说，我现在觉得联系应该是可以的。另外，如果进行业务合作，只要和原来与公司之间的合作没有冲突，我猜应该也可以，不过不确定，也许和公司的具体约定有关。
wherestip wrote: Zhoudan wrote:
跟规避没有关系
我觉得更多的还是网上往来的性质造成的。几年前有位PM离开公司，写邮件告诉了我，邮件末尾说，不知道双方今后会不会有交集，挺伤感的。
I agree with Zhoudan. I think it has more to do with the U.S. being a highly mobile society where people constantly move from place to place. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160222144332.htm Not that it's a good thing, of course.
那就是文化差异了。
[Edited at 2016-06-05 06:26 GMT]
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 08:55
Chinese to English
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| posting notifications | Jun 5, 2016 |
lbone wrote:
我记得以前我发主贴有人回复我时，都有邮件通知的，现在不知怎么没有了。
lbone,
In order to receive notifications of postings, go to "Forum settings -> Homepage forums", and check the boxes (□) of the forums you'd like to track.
| | | | lbone
China
Local time: 21:55
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | tracking thread I post | Jun 6, 2016 |
wherestip wrote: lbone wrote:
我记得以前我发主贴有人回复我时，都有邮件通知的，现在不知怎么没有了。
lbone, In order to receive notifications of postings, go to "Forum settings -> Homepage forums", and check the boxes (□) of the forums you'd like to track.
我们说的应该不是一回事。如果track某个forum的话，这个论坛里每次有人发主贴或回帖都会有邮件通知。我说的只是自己发的主贴，我印象以前自己发的主贴每次有人回帖时都有邮件通知的，现在不知道是ProZ改革了还是怎么回事，没通知了。
我刚点了下顶上的“track this topic”，结果出来个XML结构，还有一行字：“This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.” 也许是ProZ出bug了，导致thread都不能track。
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 08:55
Chinese to English
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| Track this topic | Jun 6, 2016 |
lbone wrote: wherestip wrote: lbone wrote:
我记得以前我发主贴有人回复我时，都有邮件通知的，现在不知怎么没有了。
lbone, In order to receive notifications of postings, go to "Forum settings -> Homepage forums", and check the boxes (□) of the forums you'd like to track. 我们说的应该不是一回事。如果track某个forum的话，这个论坛里每次有人发主贴或回帖都会有邮件通知。我说的只是自己发的主贴，我印象以前自己发的主贴每次有人回帖时都有邮件通知的，现在不知道是ProZ改革了还是怎么回事，没通知了。 我刚点了下顶上的“track this topic”，结果出来个XML结构，还有一行字：“This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.” 也许是ProZ出bug了，导致thread都不能track。
Well, I have no problem clicking on the button to track this topic. It must be something else that's causing the problem you're experiencing.
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David Lin
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:55
Member (2013)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Moderator of this forum | Tracking not working | Jun 7, 2016 |
Thanks for bringing up the technical problem.
All the RSS buttons for tracking a forum or a thread do not work. I've checked it. It's not limited to this thread. You could raise a staff support ticket at the bottom of this page and select the link "Submit a support request" so ProZ.com staff could address the issue.
Regards.
David
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 08:55
Chinese to English
+ ...
I certainly have no problem, as I mentioned.
| | | | pkchan
United States
Local time: 09:55
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
就算是私下的客套話，都是與公事有關，這應是專業底線。
1.
Hello everyone,
I hate to do this to you on this Friday afternoon, when most of you are probably getting ready to enjoy the long weekend but I have just received a request for the translation of the attached notice, which will be needed by this coming Monday, May 30th in all languages, including French and Arabic.
2.
Hello everyone,
I'm writing to let... See more 就算是私下的客套話，都是與公事有關，這應是專業底線。
1.
Hello everyone,
I hate to do this to you on this Friday afternoon, when most of you are probably getting ready to enjoy the long weekend but I have just received a request for the translation of the attached notice, which will be needed by this coming Monday, May 30th in all languages, including French and Arabic.
2.
Hello everyone,
I'm writing to let you know that I'll be taking time off next week (from April 21 to April 24). As in previous occasions, I will inform staff members from the Communications Office that all of you (as the primary translators on my list), should be the first ones to be contacted if there are any requests that require immediate attention. I would like to remind you that if you get any requests while I'm out on vacation, to please reply to the person contacting you for confirmation because they may try to reach some other translator if they don't hear from you in a certain period of time.
I know some of you will probably be out on school vacation too, trying to enjoy the well deserved time off from work and the nice spring weather we are finally getting (hopefully it doesn't change - for those staying in Massachusetts). Anyways... please make sure to check your emails often, just in case any requests for translations are sent to you.
Also, please remember that whenever you send any translated documents, you need to include me in the emails so that I can get copies of all translations and make sure you get paid the proper amount(s) for the projects you worked on.
Thank you very much!!
3.
Hello everyone,
I’m writing to remind you that I’m starting my vacation time pretty soon and I want to make sure once again that you are aware that you will be contacted for any translations coming within the next couple of weeks.
The person who will be taking care of processing translation requests is my colleague D S. Please make sure to answer her emails a.s.a.p. to confirm that you have received the messages.
As always, please check your translations more than once before sending it back for distribution and don’t forget to c.c. me in all emails you sent to D.
I hope everything goes well until I get back.
Thank you all very much!!
Best regards,
A ▲ Collapse
| | | | lbone
China
Local time: 21:55
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | support ticket | Jun 7, 2016 |
David Lin wrote:
You could raise a staff support ticket at the bottom of this page and select the link "Submit a support request" so ProZ.com staff could address the issue.
前两天已经提交了。他们还没回复，估计在检查。看wherestip的说法，情况有点复杂，不同ID或IP区块的情况也不一样。
*******
刚收到回复，要我用帖子右边的“Email tracking”，好像确实是可以的。
[Edited at 2016-06-07 14:41 GMT]
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 08:55
Chinese to English
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pkchan wrote:
PM 的客套話數則
就算是私下的客套話，都是與公事有關，這應是專業底線。
pk,
I agree with you. It also varies by person. Some people could be very businesslike and come across as cold.
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I'd love to get a lawyer's opinion as to whether these 'no-contact' clauses in contracts that we sign are even legally binding or not in half the states in the US. There are so many statutes regarding labor law (and laws vary from state to state) and the self-employed in general, and I wonder whether clauses like these are actually enforceable and/or if courts would construe them as being appropriate only for full-time employees.
Wouldn't want to be the guinea pig for a lawsuit over... See more I'd love to get a lawyer's opinion as to whether these 'no-contact' clauses in contracts that we sign are even legally binding or not in half the states in the US. There are so many statutes regarding labor law (and laws vary from state to state) and the self-employed in general, and I wonder whether clauses like these are actually enforceable and/or if courts would construe them as being appropriate only for full-time employees.
Wouldn't want to be the guinea pig for a lawsuit over this, but it would be fascinating to know whether or not these are valid clauses in a client/contractor contract. ▲ Collapse
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 09:55
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| 全职/永久性员工反而不会受到NON-CONTACT条款的制约 | Jun 8, 2016 |
Preston Decker wrote:
and I wonder whether clauses like these are actually enforceable and/or if courts would construe them as being appropriate only for full-time employees.
Wouldn't want to be the guinea pig for a lawsuit over this, but it would be fascinating to know whether or not these are valid clauses in a client/contractor contract.
否则在同一个单位上班的人就不能交男女朋友了，这是不可想象的。
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The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
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