Minimum fee "formula" - any suggestions? Автор темы: MariusV
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MariusV 
Литва
Local time: 08:25
английский => литовский
+ ...
Dear colleagues,
I understand very well that the minimum fee topic was discussed hundred of times (at least I saw hundreds of posts and dozens of threads after I searched the forum). But I hope you will not be too much against if I raise this issue again. And specifically:
I have several clients (for a really long time) who are permanently asking me to do those small and "micro" jobs - from a word or two (usually out of context) to some couple of dozen of words. Well, I... See more Dear colleagues,
I understand very well that the minimum fee topic was discussed hundred of times (at least I saw hundreds of posts and dozens of threads after I searched the forum). But I hope you will not be too much against if I raise this issue again. And specifically:
I have several clients (for a really long time) who are permanently asking me to do those small and "micro" jobs - from a word or two (usually out of context) to some couple of dozen of words. Well, I'd not be too much reluctant to help people on a free-of-charge basis (as doing those couple or dozen of words actually takes less time than to open, save, re-save, and send back the files, not even speaking about the things when it comes down to recording such things as "jobs" into the book and later preparing invoices out of them where just an invoice at the end of the month is quite a challenge in terms of time needed for it). Let alone, the clients actually got on my neck - each time I try to tell them in a polite diplomatic manner that some minimum fee or a bigger minimum fee would really be much appreciated, I get the same response (just in different wording) about how good that end client is, that it PAYS (maybe they pay them full good price, and those couple of peanuts for me do not solve anything), and how I should be patient as some big jobs are "soon to come". And those big jobs as a rule never come. When I estimated the time these small jobs consume, let alone these are very distracting, I started to understand where my time was disappearing - e.g. when doing some other job, you have put it aside, concentrate on that mini job or several mini jobs, with sophisticated instructions how to translate these, but no context, then wasting the time for some 10-20 words, have to return to the job that was put aside).
The stone to the garden of my patience was one recent situation. I was sleeping after one very hard overnight translation. One of these "mini job" clients emailed me an urgent job of 11 source words (separate words, without any context), I did not respond promptly (my fault, I really needed some rest, let alone I am a freelancer), then they raised a heck and started attacking me by phone. OK, I woke up, translated these 11 words on a rush, sent them back thinking all this fuss is over. Then they woke up me again with an angry call telling that I shall urgently look into my email again as I "mistranslated" two words and made them so many problems. Well, I tried to explain that these source words even in the source language can have several different meanings, let alone the target language. But the mood was really spoiled, not even speaking about the rest after overnight work.
So I decided to quit with that "mini-micro" job fuss and to introduce some "updates" based on a simple formula;
1. all and any volume up to one page goes for a minimum of one page;
2. the volume over one page calculated per actual volume;
3. the price of one page equals the price of one hour and this is a minimum fee for ANY task - is it half an hour of work, or just a couple of minutes;
4. this applies on a "take it or leave it" basis - if they agree on this, OK, I will have some interest to work then. If not, I lose actually nothing - will have free time or some rest instead. I really feel I got tired from all of this. And I need to earn money to feed my family instead of messing around with these "tiny-minies"...
What do you think? Any suggestions or your practical experiences? ▲ Collapse
| | | | OG Pete
США
русский => английский
+ ...
| Demand a Written PO | Dec 4, 2012 |
This is what I do in such situations. I'm happy to say it's worked.
Maybe it's not so much the money as the "paperwork" that slows them down.
Kind Regards.
[edited for a typo]
[Edited at 2012-12-04 05:41 GMT]
| | | | MariusV
Литва
Local time: 08:25
английский => литовский
+ ...
Автор темы | I hardly believe it will work | Dec 4, 2012 |
Питер wrote:
This is what I do in such situations. I'm happy to say it's worked.
Maybe it's not so much the money as the "paperwork" that slows them down.
Kind Regards.
[edited for a typo]
[Edited at 2012-12-04 05:41 GMT]
because such agencies handle e.g. a dozen or even more language pairs...
| | | | OG Pete
США
русский => английский
+ ...
MariusV wrote: Питер wrote:
This is what I do in such situations. I'm happy to say it's worked.
Maybe it's not so much the money as the "paperwork" that slows them down.
Kind Regards.
[edited for a typo]
[Edited at 2012-12-04 05:41 GMT] because such agencies handle e.g. a dozen or even more language pairs...
Just out of curiosity - are they operating by telephone? My thinking was that writing a PO would get them off the phone and force them to slow down, take a deep breath and think about what they're ordering.
Thank you for bringing this up. I'm sure our colleagues arriving at their desks now will have valuable input.
Best Regards.
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Samuel Murray
Нидерланды
Local time: 07:25
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => африкаанс
+ ...
| Not minimum fee but minimum deadline or minimum reply-time | Dec 4, 2012 |
MariusV wrote:
When I estimated the time these small jobs consume, let alone these are very distracting...
Your proposal to charge a minimum fee is based on the assumption that the main problem of these jobs is that they cost more money than just the per-word rate. But I think you realised that a big problem with these jobs is also that they interfere, break your concentration, and tires your mind. I believe that that may actually be a bigger problem than the problem of per-minute payment.
The solution to this is not to raise your minimum rate but to raise your minimum deadline. This may not be practical for you, depending on your client base, but if it is, then it is worth giving it a try.
There are several way you can implement such an approach. One is to set a permanent out-of-office reply that tells clients how long they can expect to wait for your reply. Another is to have a rule about the minimum time any job would take (say, e.g., no job is done within 6 hours).
I think that if you do decide to do that, you have to remind clients about this consistently but courteously.
If you set a minimum fee, then what you're really saying is that you don't mind being distracted, but I think that getting distracted is more of a burden for the translator's mind than missing out on a few more dinars.
| | | | | As a general rule ... | Dec 4, 2012 |
Hello Marius,
As a general rule, I charge a minimum fee which some might consider quite high, but this is precisely for the reasons you so aptly describe. "Short" jobs with little or no context are often more trouble than they are worth and if, as a result of my minimum charge, I don't get the job, so be it.
This is not to say that I have NEVER done a small job free of charge. I occasionally accept a paragraph or two free of charge but only for my very best and most regular clients.<... See more Hello Marius,
As a general rule, I charge a minimum fee which some might consider quite high, but this is precisely for the reasons you so aptly describe. "Short" jobs with little or no context are often more trouble than they are worth and if, as a result of my minimum charge, I don't get the job, so be it.
This is not to say that I have NEVER done a small job free of charge. I occasionally accept a paragraph or two free of charge but only for my very best and most regular clients.
Best wishes,
Jenny ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Босния и Герцеговина
Local time: 07:25
Член ProZ.com c 2009
английский => хорватский
+ ...
| $100 min project fee | Dec 4, 2012 |
I usually don't take on jobs worth less than $100, unless it's a longtime client in which case I might make an exception.
| | | | | I had the same problem... | Dec 4, 2012 |
... with two of my longtime customers and, after some negotiation, we have decided the following:
1. The words (or sentences) to be translated are always sent within context;
2. These translations are to be delivered next day (+/- within 12 hours);
3. These translations are invoiced monthly per word on a very high rate (double the normal rate).
Since then, it has been working fine...
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Philippe Etienne
Испания
Local time: 07:25
Член ProZ.com
английский => французский
| Loss of momentum costs a fortune | Dec 4, 2012 |
MariusV wrote:
1. all and any volume up to one page goes for a minimum of one page;
2. the volume over one page calculated per actual volume;
3. the price of one page equals the price of one hour and this is a minimum fee for ANY task - is it half an hour of work, or just a couple of minutes;
4. this applies on a "take it or leave it" basis - if they agree on this, OK, I will have some interest to work then.
I just wonder why you didn't implement that earlier. You've been too kind. The sort of night abuse you're telling us is a disgrace.
MariusV wrote:
When I estimated the time these small jobs consume, let alone these are very distracting, I started to understand where my time was disappearing - e.g. when doing some other job, you have put it aside, concentrate on that mini job or several mini jobs, with sophisticated instructions how to translate these, but no context, then wasting the time for some 10-20 words, have to return to the job that was put aside).
Indeed, you lose a lot of momentum with those micro-jobs. When you're a busy translator, this kind of disturbance is really a hindrance, even though the customer doesn't "see" it.
MariusV wrote:What do you think? Any suggestions or your practical experiences?
Working freelance, I don't have to justify my fee and I am very much with the take-it-or-leave-it attitude as regards microjobs. I may save a customer's life for free one day and charge them 40 euros a week later. If they ask why, I reply that circumstances are different.
Whatever standard min fee may have been agreed with the customer, I always state my fee beforehand based on the bother, itself based on the customer history, microjob frequency (the more often, the higher the fee), timeframe, tone of the email (courteous people pay less, people who want it yesterday will pay a lot more), current workload, whether I slept well the night before and the average grade of my kids at school the past month. So for a few words, I could charge anything from 0 to much more.
First-timers are out of scope for microjobs as I don't take on projects worth less than a few hundred.
Philippe
| | | | MariusV
Литва
Local time: 08:25
английский => литовский
+ ...
Автор темы
Samuel Murray wrote: MariusV wrote:
When I estimated the time these small jobs consume, let alone these are very distracting... Your proposal to charge a minimum fee is based on the assumption that the main problem of these jobs is that they cost more money than just the per-word rate. But I think you realised that a big problem with these jobs is also that they interfere, break your concentration, and tires your mind. I believe that that may actually be a bigger problem than the problem of per-minute payment. The solution to this is not to raise your minimum rate but to raise your minimum deadline. This may not be practical for you, depending on your client base, but if it is, then it is worth giving it a try. There are several way you can implement such an approach. One is to set a permanent out-of-office reply that tells clients how long they can expect to wait for your reply. Another is to have a rule about the minimum time any job would take (say, e.g., no job is done within 6 hours). I think that if you do decide to do that, you have to remind clients about this consistently but courteously. If you set a minimum fee, then what you're really saying is that you don't mind being distracted, but I think that getting distracted is more of a burden for the translator's mind than missing out on a few more dinars.
Hi Samuel,
You raised a very good point. No, it is not only the "per word rate", but for other things too. Yes, it is distracting. Not only because it distracts from the main work/project, but need to record this job into my books (otherwise I might get lost in these mini jobs at the end of the month), then it takes time to respond, then to send, quite often there are several pages of instructions how to do those couple of words, then need to ask about the context, or if it is a verb, or a noun, at least, then send, then invoice some time (where the calculation of these mini jobs and putting the amount into the invoice takes more time and work than it is worth the trouble).
| | | | MariusV
Литва
Local time: 08:25
английский => литовский
+ ...
Автор темы
Philippe Etienne wrote: MariusV wrote:
1. all and any volume up to one page goes for a minimum of one page;
2. the volume over one page calculated per actual volume;
3. the price of one page equals the price of one hour and this is a minimum fee for ANY task - is it half an hour of work, or just a couple of minutes;
4. this applies on a "take it or leave it" basis - if they agree on this, OK, I will have some interest to work then. I just wonder why you didn't implement that earlier. You've been too kind. The sort of night abuse you're telling us is a disgrace. MariusV wrote:
When I estimated the time these small jobs consume, let alone these are very distracting, I started to understand where my time was disappearing - e.g. when doing some other job, you have put it aside, concentrate on that mini job or several mini jobs, with sophisticated instructions how to translate these, but no context, then wasting the time for some 10-20 words, have to return to the job that was put aside). Indeed, you lose a lot of momentum with those micro-jobs. When you're a busy translator, this kind of disturbance is really a hindrance, even though the customer doesn't "see" it. MariusV wrote:What do you think? Any suggestions or your practical experiences? Working freelance, I don't have to justify my fee and I am very much with the take-it-or-leave-it attitude as regards microjobs. I may save a customer's life for free one day and charge them 40 euros a week later. If they ask why, I reply that circumstances are different. Whatever standard min fee may have been agreed with the customer, I always state my fee beforehand based on the bother, itself based on the customer history, microjob frequency (the more often, the higher the fee), timeframe, tone of the email (courteous people pay less, people who want it yesterday will pay a lot more), current workload, whether I slept well the night before and the average grade of my kids at school the past month. So for a few words, I could charge anything from 0 to much more. First-timers are out of scope for microjobs as I don't take on projects worth less than a few hundred. Philippe
Well, being too much polite does not always turn into good I think it is really time to act - to make a "nice" New Year present to them setting such minimum fees that could make me to be motivated to do those micro jobs. If they do not agree, let it be their problem, not mine. Moreover, I am not very much sure they are doing any charity to their own (end) clients doing same micro-job from e.g. English into a whole bunch of target languages (20-30 target languages or so)...OK, this is not my business what they charge their own client, but I think when people get too much on the neck, this is time to tell them in plain text and clearly ask to climb down.
| | | | | One-night stands | Dec 4, 2012 |
I often get requests from new, unknown customers, where the time taken in correspondence, Blue Board checking, and invoices by far surpasses the time it takes to actually do the translation itself. It's usually about translating 150-300 words, something worth USD 20-35.
In such cases, I adopt a minimum USD 50 charge per client, per month. I bill them right away, and they'll have the balance available as a credit to use within 30 days from my delivery/invoice date. Guess what? None o... See more I often get requests from new, unknown customers, where the time taken in correspondence, Blue Board checking, and invoices by far surpasses the time it takes to actually do the translation itself. It's usually about translating 150-300 words, something worth USD 20-35.
In such cases, I adopt a minimum USD 50 charge per client, per month. I bill them right away, and they'll have the balance available as a credit to use within 30 days from my delivery/invoice date. Guess what? None of these so far ever used this balance! They were all one-night stands.
For regular clients, I usually don't charge for what I consider minor stuff, e.g. just a phrase, especially if it's half a dozen phrases the end-client decided to change in the source text of a large translation I've already delivered.
Yet I have one very frequent client - I close my bill every two weeks - who demands an invoice for each and every job I do for them. These invoices range from 1 to 5 digits. Overall, it's worth it, however I wouldn't issue a 1-digit invoice to a one-night-stand client.
Video work (e.g. translation and subtitling) makes it more complex. I must first download the video to check whether it's workable. Then I must tackle video container, format, codec issues to develop a strategy. As I burn subtitles in AVI format, I must convert it, do the job, and then convert it back into the format the client wants.
Now these conversions require careful setup. If any setting is wrong, they'll have to be redone. After the settings are correct, it's mechanical work the computer does on its own. If it's a short video, figuring the settings may take longer than the conversion itself. If the video is long, I can let the computer do the conversion overnight.
Now I get frequent requests for translating and subtitling videos where the total playing time is under 5 or 10 minutes. As I charge each operation per minute of playing time, these wouldn't cover the work involved. So I followed Sintra's recommendation (last dark grey-shaded title), and decided that I'll charge for 15 minutes' playing time per order (not per video), as I seldom get different input material.
A couple of weeks ago a new client requested an estimate, and sent me a 1-hour interactive DVD and their desired script (i.e., remove all the videos that are not there), to assemble another interactive, subtitled DVD. Well, the disk contained 175 files (not all videos, of course, and I know how to sort them out quickly), so you can imagine the amount of work to get that calculated. This is included in the total cost.
My general guideline is that while I strive to spare my clients from any unnecessary expense, I charge them for everything I do.
[Edited at 2012-12-04 11:24 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| "The man who works for nothing... | Dec 4, 2012 |
..is never short of a job"
I always apply a minimum charge, rated at the cost of 250 words. Works for me and stops people pestering you for endless freebies...
Steve K.
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